Episode 72 of the Diary of an Apartment Investor Podcast with Keeley Hubbard and Melanie McDaniel, hosted by Brian Briscoe. Transcript by Otter.ai – please forgive any errors.
Brian Briscoe 0:00
Well, that said, Melanie, we got Keeley on the line here. What do you want to ask her?
Melanie McDaniel 0:02
Everyone's talking about having a platform. So you have a funnel? Do you have that? Or do you target more relationally. And individually,
Keeley Hubbard 0:12
everybody's dream is to send out their investment and it's funded in a week. And that's why they talk about this capital raising platform. And yes, I think that's important. It's important to build funnels, it's important to have emails, it's important to educate your investors. However, I have seen some people get tripped up and not raised, because they're too dependent on that and hiding behind the screen. And so what I always tell people is get on the phone, you should be talking to them once a month, I do think it's more successful to build relationships.
Brian Briscoe 0:48
Welcome to the Diary of an Apartment Investor Podcast with your host Brian Briscoe. In this podcast we bring some of the top professionals in the apartment investment field to discuss various aspects of the apartment investing journey, with the sole purpose of educating listeners to make wise investment decisions. The Diary of an Apartment Investor podcast is sponsored by Four Oaks Capital, bringing you high yield returns through apartment complex investing. This is episode number 72 and part of our Ask the Expert series today I speak with experienced investor Keeley Hubbard and aspiring investor Millie McDaniel. Keep listening for tips on how you can find and attract passive investors for your next real estate transaction. And now the show and by the way, it's a good one. So you're in for a treat. Welcome to the diamond apartment investor podcast. I'm your host, Brian brisco, with forex capital and I'm really excited for today's show. It's one of our Ask the Expert episodes. We have two amazing women on the line with us right now. One that has a tonne of experience in this and other businesses, Keeley Hubbard and a motivated aspiring investor Melanie McDaniel. So starting with Keeley she's both a multifamily syndicator and investor as well as a sales coach for business owners and professionals who are looking to break through to the top of their field. She's also spent seven years in the financial education industry as an executive. And her passion for people in skilled communication drove unprecedented growth. As a managing partner of hover capital, a multifamily investment firm that she co founded with her father, she's duly responsible for acquisition and Investor Relations. When she isn't sales, coaching, touring properties or underwriting deals, you can find her hanging out with her big crazy fund family. So that said, Kelly, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Happy to be here. Yeah. So first question. Big crazy fun family. I mean, tell tell us a little bit about that. I mean, how big and how crazy fun?
Keeley Hubbard 2:33
Well, it's not as big. Maybe people think like, Oh my gosh, 1012 kids, there's only four kids, but there's quite a lot of noise and laughter and we're just all super close. You know, one thing I'm really grateful for if you're really close to my both my parents and my brother and sisters.
Brian Briscoe 2:48
Oh, nice. Nice. Nice. You got you guys all live close to
Keeley Hubbard 2:52
we do. We all live within like 20 minutes of each other. Yeah, we have dinner several times a week. And they're like my best friends. And I'm blessed to have
Brian Briscoe 3:01
That's awesome. We live in in DC right now. And I'm going to retire from from my current profession. I'm active duty military, but retire next summer. And we're going to move into a situation where we're going to be within 20 minutes of a lot of families. Yeah, so my, my wife's sister, her parents are sisters, and their families and her parents and everybody else. We're gonna be just right there close. So I'm excited for that. Thank you for your service. Thanks. I appreciate that. So yeah, family is is is awesome. I think my my wife's family is you say the same thing big and crazy fun. So well, cool. So let's tell us a little bit about yourself, you know your background in history and kind of lead us up to what got you into apartment investing?
Keeley Hubbard 3:45
Well, I am I was like, say, I escaped corporate America. About two years ago, I built my career in corporate America for years, I was VP of sales for a company that I helped to build and grow and kind of got to a place where, you know, you have all the accolades, you have the titles, you know, your dream house, your dream car, but you just feel emotionally bankrupt. And so I really took a look at my life is this the life that I want to live and I decided to walk away from it, I had a passion. I've always had a passion for helping people achieve their financial life goals, whether that's through the financial markets, which is my, you know, previous background and world or real estate. Now, even in the world of sales, coaching business owners, it's helping people design the life that they want to live, and having the financial resources to get there. So that's really my passion now, and I'm so grateful to be able to do this with my father, which I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do so because I was so busy in the corporate world. But life's life's taken a big turn in the last two years, and I couldn't be happier where I'm at now.
Brian Briscoe 4:41
Yeah. So what prompted you to leave the corporate world? I mean, you said he had other titles. You had the big house, you know, you mentioned that emotionally bankrupt, was there a trigger? Or was it just one one day realisation that things weren't what you wanted it to be?
Keeley Hubbard 4:53
You know, I think there was certainly a trigger there. There was some things happening that were not ethical with the exactly leadership in the company that I just didn't agree with. But you know, I love the people I worked with, I love the teams, my sales teams were like, you know, dear dear friends to me, but I travelled 22 to 23 days a month. And even though I had all these amazing things in this life, and this house at home, I kind of felt like a ghost in my own home. I think the big thing for me was that I remember being, you know, in the room with my family at family gatherings, dinners, you know, big celebrations, like Christmas and all the holidays, and I was there, but I wasn't present, my mind was in the business world, because it was seven days a week non stop a lot of stress. And I, you know, I regret that and I really, you know, I look forward to my life, like, I don't want to have any regrets going forward, and I want to be present when I'm with my family. And with my family, I'm not thinking about work. My mind is not, you know, elsewhere, I want to cherish that time that I've got with other people. So that was really the kind of the breaking point for me.
Brian Briscoe 5:50
Yeah. You know, and, and a lot of people look at jobs where people travel all the time. And they think, hey, that sounds great. That sounds awesome. And until you actually do it, you know, 23 days, 22 days a month is a lot. I mean, a lot of time away from home,
Keeley Hubbard 6:03
some of it was International. And you know, I just never unpacked my suitcase, I would get home, I'd open my suitcase, throw everything in the washer dry cleaner, and then repack it and go again. And it was crazy.
Brian Briscoe 6:13
Yeah, you know, I've had periods. I mean, besides the deployments, but I've had jobs where I was, you know, homing home again, got to get home again, gone again. And, you know, with the family, it's hard to get into a routine, you know, it's hard to come back and, you know, re insert yourself when you know, you're going to leave in two or three days. And I what you said really, really resonated with me because you at a certain certain points in my life, I've kind of seen that, you know, and I felt exactly the same where you're home, but, you know, sometimes just like, is this really my family? I mean, never here, I don't understand the side conversations and jokes, but alright, so so you had that that moment where you wanted to move out what what led you to multifamily What led you to what you're doing now,
Keeley Hubbard 6:58
my father, my dad is a serial entrepreneur. He's also a professional currency. So forex futures trader, he's been in the financial markets since I was a kid, he's managed money as well, and just started to realise that it couldn't get the same returns for his investors that he was used to getting. And he's like when you start moving into hard assets, and he had experience with commercial lease backs back in the 80s. So we've done some real estate before. But he's just he's so great at not getting stuck in one place, when he sees the tide changing. He starts redirecting funds, because he, you know, he feels personally responsible for his investors and the people's money that he was managing. So we started looking at family a few years ago, and I wish we'd started sooner. You know,
Brian Briscoe 7:40
I say that a lot. You know, I had an opportunity to get out of the Marine Corps in 2012. And I ended up staying in for the day, they just dangle the right carrot in front of me at the right time, you know, and that kind of sealed the deal for me to go make it a career. But, you know, I look back at that moment and thinking man, if I just would if I would have started multifamily in 2012, you know, wow. But what good so so you say to multifamily, and your dad had had the foresight to be able to pivot? How was that transition for you?
Keeley Hubbard 8:09
The transition into multifamily? I mean, we started with six units. We didn't know any better, you know, and I think a lot of people, they do start out small, I think it's great, you know, you kind of build this learning curve, but we very quickly realised it was gonna be really challenging for us to scale to build, you know, a portfolio the size that we wanted to build going six, seven units at a time. Yes. So we very quickly started figuring out and looking into how do we scale this, and that's how we found apartment syndication. And, you know, for me in the beginning, if I'm being totally transparent, it's intimidating to me, just like the financial markets were intimidating to me. My dad was always, you know, the trader, he knew everything. And I was coming in handling Investor Relations and working with the people side of things. And it's the same thing here in multifamily. He's the underwriter. He's the numbers guy, and I truly believe you've got to operate in your strengths. And my I can do it right. Like I know how to underwrite but it's very taxing, for me, not something I enjoy. So for me to be able to come in, build investor decks, build website, build all of our marketing and talk to our investors, and especially manage our capital raise from start to finish. That's what I'm really good at. And that's what makes me happy. And you know, what, I'm happy our investors feel it. So I think it's, it was a great transition and figuring out okay, how do we each operate within our strengths? to benefit everybody overall?
Brian Briscoe 9:26
Yeah, you know, that's something that actually took me a long time to figure out was, at first I wanted to be involved in every single piece of the business, you know, and I think that it very quickly was apparent that that wasn't going to work out but I think you You nailed it on the head, you know, work within your strengths, and find people who complements you and you're very fortunate to have a father who can do the things that that you can't and you you mutually work together for the same, same purpose. So what did you do? I mean, how did you learn the business? I mean, it's obviously different. I mean, there's there's carryovers from financial education. And the investments your your father did, but it's different as well.
Keeley Hubbard 10:04
Yes, it's very different. You know, my dad and I are big believers, and instead of trying to figure it out on your own, find somebody that knows what they're doing, hire them and shorten the learning curve. That's what we did. You know, we came into the space, I think the multifamily education space is a little crowded in terms of not knowing who's the right mentor for me, right, based on what my goals are, who I work best with. And so we found a group that my dad was primarily involved in for about 10 months. And it just, it wasn't the right fit, we didn't click and so we started looking again, and we finally found the right mentor. And that's really where our success took off, was finding the right person that you you gel with, they've got the experience, and they can truly hold your hand from start to finish. And you know, you can, you can read about it, you can listen to a tonne of podcasts, which I think all that stuff's great. But I'm a big believer in at some point, you've got to start executing. And in this world, it's a lot easier to execute and less scary if you have somebody holding your hand that's done it before.
Brian Briscoe 11:01
Yeah, you know, I went the same route. I really did. And I for me, like, I think you hit the nail on the head again, you shorten the learning curve, you know, and, for me, I've said this dozens of times before, I think it accelerated my growth personally. And it also was for me, I had more confidence, going into the larger properties. And, you know, something, something else that I think also resonated with me, I started looking at the 4567 plexus, you know, that's something that I felt that I could do all by myself. But the difference is, I caught wind of syndication before I was able to purchase my first one. And I thought, you know what, maybe maybe I'll just get this coach thing and, you know, get a mentor and figure out how to go a little bit bigger. But yeah, that's really cool. So follow up on on the question you said about, you know, finding the right mentor, what key factors were important to you in selecting the right mentor,
Keeley Hubbard 11:52
you know, the silver lining, and the one that didn't work out for us was it really helped us figure out exactly what we needed to be successful. And for us, it's one on one coaching directly from like, the main guy, right, the main guru, and the ability to call text whenever you need him, has been huge for us. The second thing that was a big deal was the ability to partner the fact that he would partner with us on our deals gives us a tonne of credibility when we're calling brokers, it especially helps when we're talking to investors, I think investors trust my father, but for him to be able to say, Yeah, my partner's got 8000 units, you know, and 46 deals across eight states, that brings a lot more credibility to the table. So the ability to partner with somebody, and also I think, to a lot of these mentoring groups, right, you're getting a coach, but you're also surrounding yourself by people that are doing the same thing. And those are likely going to become your partners, right, and a general partnership team. So being a part of a group where the culture is established, and upheld by everybody, where we all agree about how we do business together, there's character and integrity. And we really are like a big family, I think those are probably the three big things that have been that have helped us become successful when
Brian Briscoe 13:05
Yeah, and I like that you have to have the network. And incidentally, you know, the the four partners in four oaks capital, you know, three of the four of us were involved in the same coaching programme, you and the fourth was was best friend to one of us, so that that definitely ended up being part of it. But the other things you brought up, you know, having basically 24 seven access to the guy running the show and community. He also is a partnership, the ability to partner with with somebody with experience, and those are all absolute keys. Because when you when you're trying to make in this business, I mean, first calling brokers and being able to say we're partnering with a group with 8000 units. That's immediate credibility. Number two, you need that credibility to be able to get the loan to you need those people on your team to be able to get the loan. so so good, good. So let's shift gears slightly. What is your motivation for doing this? What's your big burning y
Keeley Hubbard 14:01
contribution? I think one of the biggest things that I learned about myself over the last couple years is that when I was an executive in this company, I was chasing after significance, uncertainty, significance of it makes me feel good to be a VP of sales and to build this company and make all this money and have all these amazing things. And what I realised you know, over the years are things are just things. And it's like, you get the title, you get the house, you get all the things that you were going for, and you're still not happy. And what I've learned is that true happiness comes from growth and contribution. And this is a Tony Robbins perspective. I went to four events last year before COVID raving fan of his but I learned so much about myself and it really is growth of yourself, right, my growing and becoming better every single day and am I giving back and that's where true fulfilment comes from. And he always says that success without fulfilment is the ultimate failure. And that's where I was a few years ago when I was working for corporate. But now I feel So much more alive because I'm operating within my gifts. And I feel like I'm truly helping people and giving back. That's my why.
Brian Briscoe 15:07
Yeah, I think that's important, you know, giving giving back. It's just, I don't know, I don't think I've ever felt better than when I'm helping other people, you know, so so when you talk about fulfilment, I am a Tony Robbins fan, but maybe not as big of a fan as you are. But read a couple of his books. I think he's phenomenal. But that quote, you said, You know, I really appreciate it, you know. So let's take one more, one more shifted in directions here. Let's let's talk about one of the deals that you guys have done. You can pick which one or you can talk about your investment philosophy as a whole, but give us an idea of what your company does.
Keeley Hubbard 15:38
Yeah, absolutely. So we've primarily focused on Class B, and C value ads. We love the tertiary markets. We're primarily focused in Lubbock, Texas, which, if you're familiar with Texas Tech University, that's a major university that's there, you probably wouldn't have a lot of other reasons to go out to West Texas. It's pretty far out there. But we're learning to love that area. It's been really fruitful for us and for our investors. But we're actually under contract right now on 236 units that's set to close end of January, and it's a Class B property. And yeah, we the other properties that we've got, there are classy properties. So this one is, you know, a little bit different and just as exciting, but I think it's gonna be a great investment. And we've had a lot of Great Investor interest already. So we're excited about it.
Brian Briscoe 16:22
Nice. So follow on questions to that one, why tertiary markets
Keeley Hubbard 16:27
returns so most of our investors expect to double their money in five or six years. And for us to be able to achieve those returns. We've got to be in markets that y'all are probably familiar with a lot of people in our group and you know, Lana's Tennessee's Florida. For us being in Texas, Lubbock is a four hour drive, it's really easy for us to get out there. We're also looking in other you know, tertiary markets in Texas as well. Yeah, that we plan on expanding but returns is a big one. And there's really great smaller markets out there that are steady, Eddie's that are growing, that have great employment, all the all the things that you look for when you're identifying the market.
Brian Briscoe 17:01
Yeah, you know, and our philosophy is actually very similar. You know, we are looking for B and C class in in tertiary markets for really all the same reasons. The only difference is we're not in Texas, we're in the southeast. So my screensaver in the back is Greenville. And you know, we'll be closing a deal in Augusta, Georgia. The population of the MSA in Augusta is about a half a million. So good markets. And like I said, steady Eddy, there's just steady growth and a lot, a lot of good things. A lot of goodness going on there. And I think the biggest thing is, is the competition just isn't there. You're not one of 30 offers on every property. And in my opinion, if if you win an offer when there's 30 offers in on the on the table, you're probably overpaying
Keeley Hubbard 17:41
probably. And it's easier to I think to establish a relationship with brokers in those markets. Because like you mentioned, you're not competing a whole lot. I mean, our broker in Lubbock owns 95% of the market share there. So if there's anything on the market or off the market, it usually comes across our desk. So we're very grateful to have built that relationship. And that's one of the reasons that we love that market. Yeah.
Brian Briscoe 18:01
Yeah, I think I think tertiary markets are a good place for for beginning investors to start out. And yeah, lots lots of good reasons to hit up tertiary markets. Well, that said, what's what's next for you? Well, I
Keeley Hubbard 18:12
mean, right now we are focused this next year in 2021, is probably another at least two acquisitions. Probably continue in the labour market. We're also looking in San Antonio, some other markets in Texas, we're thinking about some out of state ones as well. We'll see how that goes to have to be a smaller property if we're going to go out of state with some of the markets that we're looking at. But we'll keep expanding the portfolio. We're continuing our asset management, we're going to be in the middle of some big renovations in 2021. And I'm just continuing to expand my sales coaching programme that's kept me super busy. And yeah, we'll see what 2021 holds for us. Hopefully, it's just as exciting but also not as exciting as 2020.
Brian Briscoe 18:52
Yeah, exciting in different ways. Yeah. I mean, 2020 Wow. You know, it's it's been a difficult year for a lot of people, but there's also a lot of opportunities. You know, every time you have difficulties, you know, especially like, like 2020 has been a lot of times it's just opportunities in disguise. You know, you look at what's going on other people stop. And when other people are fearful. You like Warren Buffett says people are fearful to be greedy. So good enough. So let's, let's introduce our next guest. We got Melanie McDaniel. She's the founder of freestyle Capital Group, which is a private equity firm that provides education and passive real estate investment opportunities to credited in sophisticated investors. Real Estate Investing journey began in 2015 when she read Rich Dad Poor Dad. Interestingly enough, that's kind of one of the sparks for me as well. She was a law enforcement park ranger at the time, and it took her until 2017. To prepare her leave her government job to jump into real estate full time. She started as a real estate agent and went full time into multifamily syndication in early 2020. She now owns a 24 unit property in Norfolk, Virginia, with a few partners and is a limited partner on a 276 unit in Huntsville, Alabama. And she Super excited for her first gen partner multifamily syndication opportunity coming up. So that said, Melanie, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I know I know. So let's let's do this. Let's let's talk about you now and tell us a little bit about yourself your background and history and what kind of got you into this multifamily space.
Melanie McDaniel 20:20
I come from a blue collar background, I knew nothing about financing or saving money or buying real estate or anything. I was always taught, go to school, get good grades, go to college, get the military that was my choice and you know, get a government job with a pension and that will be fine. Everything will be fine. So yeah, when I read Rich Dad Poor Dad, I was a smart person growing up like it did very well in school even graduated high school your early because I was over it join the military because I wanted to travel the world. And I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. But I didn't really know. Still, even when I was getting out, didn't know what I wanted to be. But I knew I love to travel. So I studied tourism. I have a bachelor's degree in travel administration. And I just kind of fell into being a park ranger because it made sense. My dad, he worked for the prison system in Utah, not so much from park ranger National Park Service, but it just I don't know. Yeah, I fell into it because it was an easy path. The only entrepreneurs or real estate investors I knew of were either bad business people and failing entrepreneurs, or the real estate investors were family members, but they were like slumlord. So really bad vision of what an entrepreneur or a real estate person looks like. So I was doing my park ranger job and it was okay. But I was very unfulfilled. I had all these curiosities I had something wasn't fulfilling in my life. So I don't even know how that book ended up on my hands. But I read it and it was the concepts in there, I could not read I could not learn like my whole paradigm shifted. And yeah, like I do the short end of the stick because I was like, 3334 by the time this concept came into my life, so that being said, super conservative, I had this retirement plan, everything was how it was supposed to be according to how I was raised. And now there's this paradigm shift. So lots of reading lots of podcasts, it was really the mindset shift that needed to happen, the concept I was clear on. But the mindset that when I could do it, too, it's possible that you know, get over the hump of people close to me telling me I'm stupid for quitting my job. But anyway, I in 2017, was ready to go. And I ended up being a real estate agent just as a stepping stone that was always the plan and did very well with that. And continuing my learning this concept of economies of scale. started appearing pretty early in my studying, but there were just too many zeros. I couldn't wrap my mind around it. So yeah, about a single family house that didn't go so well. Decided would never do that. Again. It was just a rental turnkey rental in St. Louis, Missouri. I never even stepped foot on the property. Nightmare, dabbled in some notes and backing some of my investor clients that I had as an agent. And yeah, just I don't even know what made me do the coaching programme, but I did have a coach did Michael blanks programme, so that kind of made the process faster, right, as Kelly mentioned, closing the time gap, collapsing time frames, I guess there are 24 unit through that programme. And all the while getting clear on what it is I actually want to do. Like in an apartment syndication, there are lots of moving parts, lots of jobs, lots of hats to wear. Yeah. And different skills. Like I always knew I didn't love the numbers. But talking to brokers, I thought that would be fun negotiating and going to properties walking, touring, whatever. But as I did all that and move forward, I realised that wasn't what I actually loved. I'm very much in alignment with what Kaylee does on the investor relations, side capital marketing. I just think this apartment investing is one of the best investments. So I want to share that with people because people like me back, you know, five years ago who had no clue I want to bring this opportunity to people that were like me.
Brian Briscoe 24:11
Yeah, there's a lot of things there that could have come out of my mouth describing my background. You know, my dad was a blue collar job pension. he's a he's just living off pension right now. Incidentally, when I was a kid, I thought he was a blue collar employee because he wore a blue shirt to work every day. You know? And same thing. I mean, part of the reason I'm still in the military, you know, 19 and a half years after you know, day one is that pension the idea of the good government pension every once in a while I do something that came that gave me the paradigm shift. You know, Rich Dad, Poor Dad was one of them. And here's here's the funny thing, and I've said this on probably 30 different podcast episodes. When I first read that book, he talks a lot about multifamily. He talks a lot about commercial real estate in there. And I remember thinking, Hmm, I don't think I'm smart enough to wrap my head around that commercial real estate thing, but I can figure out single family houses. That's what I did, you know, ended up picking up a couple single family houses. But yeah, a lot a lot of things in in there. I think a lot of people go through the same, same processes, you know, they do what they're taught to do they do what their their role models have done. And that's exactly what you did not not knowing any better, because that's what you grew up with. You went into that safe government job that offered a pension, which you know, is security to to a lot of people. But yeah, so that said, What's your big burning? Why?
Melanie McDaniel 25:31
My big why So ever since I was probably 12. And then why I joined the military was to travel and then when I got out of the military, even though I was stationed in Italy for two of those years, which is amazing. I wanted to get out because I in the military, you can't take a month off to go backpacking, and I wanted to be able to do that. No, I studied tourism and there's just this thing I keep going back to I love to travel and Ryan you know this about me I'm nomadic right now. I was supposed to spend 2020. abroad, they started in Thailand, came back for bc 2020. next stop was Playa Del Carmen and I didn't get on the plane because that's when our country was going in lockdown. So this whole year I had scheduled international Well, I had to shift that I've done domestic So pretty much every state in the west from not quite Texas and over but Colorado and over and align. Every state just moving around spending a month in each place trying to figure out where home is I really don't know where feels like home to me. So as I move about, I'm learning markets meeting people. So Kelly, I'm not too far from you. I'm in Kingsland, Texas, which is outside of Austin. And I'll be probably in Dallas area next for a little stint. Awesome. But it's to meet people try to find my GPS I want to build a business with and meet investors, of course along the way, and yeah, I have fun. This is fun to me, I sometimes don't know when work ends and life begins. It's just just what I do all the time. I'd love to talk about real estate, I think it's,
Brian Briscoe 26:59
that should be the goal, enjoying your job so much that it's not work, you know, so well, that said, Melanie, we got Kelly on the line here what you want to ask her?
Melanie McDaniel 27:07
Yeah, so I'm super excited. Man, I read your bio, on your website and everything. But I'm super excited because of the talk today, because you do pretty much what I do. So the questions I already have prepared are still the same questions. But I know that you're, you're the best person to ask these two. So how do you reach potential investors who don't necessarily love to talk about real estate and attend all the real estate events? But if given the opportunity would be a good fit, to invest in a syndication? Do you have favourite platforms or types of networking groups? you recommend to connect with those people? Or even outside of that, like how do you connect with people that aren't in our club?
Keeley Hubbard 27:44
Yeah, I love that question. And it's something that I've trained on in the past and discussed with other capital raisers. Because a lot of times, you know, that we can kind of get so caught up in our own real estate world, like you mentioned, best ever, and I was there and we probably walked by each other at some point, and we didn't meet yet. And I love events like that. I think it's really important for us to be there and establish relationships. But I don't necessarily think they're the best place to find investors. Because you have mostly syndicators are mostly lead sponsors, and very few passive investors. And so I always think about how can I be the only real estate expert in the room, if I'm going to a networking event? And you know, so I do look into business clubs, I tap into just some friends that I met through even the Tony Tony Robbins world that are, you know, platinum partners that are very well connected in the in the business arena, how can I be the real estate expert to those people? And so I'm always trying to figure out, you know, how do I find groups of people who have the problems that we fix, right. And in multifamily investments that we can, we can share it with, because it is great to you know, have those seasoned investors come in and they will contact you, they do find you from doing stuff like this, and podcasts and they hear about you, but really meeting those new people. And it's a little bit more challenging during COVID. Right. Normally, there's events going on that you can go to and networking events, but it is really finding those events where you're that you're the expert in the room would be my biggest piece of advice. Good. Thank you. Yes,
Brian Briscoe 29:14
that's the question. Everybody is trying to figure out, you know, we're we're just finishing on a $4 million raise, we brought a couple of partners in to help us raise capital. And when I looked over the investor list from the partners, I'm like, let's see, I know him. I know her. I know him. I talked to him about this, you know, and it's just one of those where one of my partner uses the word incestuous once once you start going to those events, you have all the same friends, your network, you know, you look on LinkedIn is like, you know, 682, Shared Contacts, you know, your, your your stuffs all going out to the same group of people. And I think that's a great question. And Kelly, I love the answer. You know, it's something that I think everybody at one point, when they're scaling is going to have to do, get away from that syndicator crowd and find the people who aren't You know, showing up to the best ever conference or the dealmaker live events? So yeah, that's it.
Keeley Hubbard 30:06
I would add to I think, you know, even if you find those people, what I found just being a sales coach is a lot of times people mess up the intro, right? Like you meet these people, you're at a networking event, you're the only multifamily investor in the room, and people ask you what you do, and maybe I respond with Oh, I'm a multifamily syndicator. And they're like, Oh, that's cool. Right? They don't want to ask you, what's that? Because they don't want to offend you, right? Like, oh, shoot, I'm supposed to know what that means. And so the conversation ends there, because they don't wanna feel stupid, because they think they are supposed to know what it is, and they don't wanna make you feel, you know, irritated. So I always come from the angle of know, your audience and who you're talking to. So if you're at a business networking event, and you're talking to business owners, and they say, Oh, you know, what do you do? I say, Well, I typically work with business owners who are a little bit concerned about their investments and kind of where the stock market's at, it's been a little bit of a roller coaster, and they're hoping to stabilise that and, you know, diversify themselves and get some tax benefits as well. And I help them do that through multifamily investing. Do you want to say things that would trigger a response in the person that you're talking to where they can relate to it emotionally? What are they tired of worried about nervous about concern with, it's the emotional triggers that will get them to be interested versus the logical response of why invest in you know, we buy apartment buildings that probably not going to get you the response that you're looking for? So know your audience, and be very careful on how you describe what you do?
Melanie McDaniel 31:28
Good. But my other Another question I have is similar to the capital raising piece, do you have like a funnel, or there's this platform? Everyone's talking about having a platform? So you have a funnel? Do you have that? Or do you target more relationally? And individually? How do you connect?
Keeley Hubbard 31:48
Yeah, I'm glad you asked that. So I'll give you a kind of two different perspectives. So my father and I, our focus is acquisition right now, we certainly have investors, they come to us organically, but I haven't been super focused on finding investors and building a big investor list. So the ones that do come to us and building relationships with to be transparent, we have so much going on, we've got some other investments that we're working on that we don't mind, bringing on capital raisers and giving away equity to be able to hit our targets. So we certainly do that. What I will say, though, is I do coach a lot of capital raisers just because of my sales experience. And I think it's really important, yes, to have the platform eventually, when you've got an investor list of hundreds of people that you need to keep warm, you know, even maybe into the 1000s, because I think everybody's dream is to send out their investment. And it's funded in a week, right? Well, I haven't talked to anybody that's like everybody's dream. And that's why they talk about this capital raising platform. And yes, I think that's important. It's important to build funnels, it's important to have emails, it's important to educate your investors. However, I have seen some people get tripped up and not raised, because they're too dependent on that and hiding behind the screen, because they're more comfortable in that world versus getting out there talking to investors. That may sound harsh, but it's just, it's the truth. And I don't think you're gonna have an issue with that. Because you love you love people. And so what I always tell people is get on the phone, you should be talking to them once a month, just pick up the phone and call them even when you don't have a deal. Because this is a relationship based business. Anybody can call them and check in and see what's going on in their life. You know how their kids are, you know, how's how's life, how's family, here's what I'm up to, I don't have any deals yet. We're still looking at these markets, it still keeps them warm in in the pipeline. Yes, it's more work to be on the phone with people. But you'll find your deals a lot faster by keeping your investors warm versus cold emails that are coming through a perfectly designed funnel, if that makes sense. And again, just one opinion. But I do think it's more successful to build relationships.
Brian Briscoe 33:45
I tend to agree wholeheartedly. I mean, if you look at our automation, we don't have great automations you know, we don't have that perfect, you know, set of emails that goes out to everybody in the once a week already pre planned, whatever. But yeah, we do get on the phone with a lot of people, you know, and we spend a lot of time talking to people. And that's, that's really what ends up. The people that we spend a lot of time with on the phone are the ones that usually end up investing with us. And we're not to the point to where, you know, we're clicking buttons and, you know, getting millions but I think you're right, that's that's kind of like the holy grail from a capital raiser standpoint is I click a button and then I watched the money come in. Yes, not there yet. But
Melanie McDaniel 34:27
sound fun to me, like Tell me if my idea is realistic or not? Because I don't want 1000s of people in a funnel that I have to make a video or a podcast or a newsletter for like consistency consistently to keep up with that. I mean, Yes, I will. I'll do the things I need to do. But I ideally would love 200 people, maybe less but 200 that invest one once every three years with me but keep doing it. And that's it. Like I don't I don't feel like I need to have 1000s of People in a funnel that never invest. I really just want real relationships and I want to change real lives. And then one day like, this is my biggest pipe dream ever is I know them so well that once a year we go meet at some resort in Mexico and have a party I want to build my business. Is that realistic or not?
Keeley Hubbard 35:20
I certainly think it is i the only thing I would just there's I think you can find people that would invest with you, probably more frequently than once every three years, you'll find, you know, kind of your core group of repeat investors. But I wholeheartedly agree with the whole relationship side of things. And yes, it's great to have all the automations. But I would say the more that you can just stay in front of your investors. I know a capital raiser who has a whatsapp group, that it's just an easy way for him to send updates. Here's what I'm up to. I'm touring a property here, there's an investment opportunity popping up here. It's a great way for him to stay in front of any as hundreds of investors or if you're doing it on social media, and just kind of answering those common questions that people have about the multifamily space where they constantly see Oh, there's Melanie, again. Oh, let's see what she's talking about today. Right. She's helping me understand multifamily further. And I will add to that, you know, used to years ago, people have to see on average, your marketing or advertising of any company eight times before they say yes and move forward buying anything. Nowadays, it's doubled. It's 16. So some sometimes we think, are people out there even listening. And I would encourage you be consistent. Keep putting it out there, let them see it over and over and over and over again. And they will eventually come around and they will invest. But it's that consistency of putting it out there even when you think is anybody listening? Anybody interested?
Brian Briscoe 36:36
Yeah, I think that idea you have is Grammy if you had 200 investors to put I mean, just just exactly what you said, if you had 200 investors that did exactly what what you say, and they're doing a minimum of $50,000 I mean, quick math in public, you're still raising over $3 million a year, you know, which, as a capital raiser is a pretty good clip, I would say that something that you definitely want from your investors is when you take a deal full cycle, you know, three, five or eight years, depending on what you're looking at, you want to give them a boatload of cash back, you know, so they're getting their principal back, and they're getting the proceeds from the sale back. So that's, that's the biggest, you know, cash event in the in the whole cycle. You want them to take that money and say, Hey, Melanie, what else do you got? You know, can I just move this right into your next deal? You know, I think that's, that's something you want to look for. And that's that's going to keep them every three to five years, you know, consistently investing with you. But I also agree with Keeley, you know, most of them are going to be doing it more more frequently. You know, we've got a couple that a small number that have invested in, you know, several of our syndications. And, you know, we had one guy came on with with one we closed in June, who said, you know, he wanted to do one a year with us, you know, so yeah, I think that 200 I think that's, that's a good, solid number. And I think that's, you know, the idea of keeping those guys investing with you over over a long period time is going to work out.
Melanie McDaniel 38:01
Yeah, I mean, not only when you return their money at the end, I mean, at the refi, they could potentially do a deal with the refi on a deal at the end, so that one deal could turn into two and those two would turn into I'm not going to do math in public. But
Brian Briscoe 38:13
yeah, I've got two degrees in math, but I am terrible at arithmetic. And especially any math in public, you know, so there's too much pressure. Yeah, it's just like, uh, yeah, so But yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, the the deal should multiply, you know, if you're doing a refinancing your deal, and you're returning 50% of their capital, you know, have an opportunity lined up, you know, and just say, hey, oh, by the way, you know, here's 50% of the capital invested. And if you don't know what to do with that money, we've got another deal for you. Bam. So
Melanie McDaniel 38:50
that's my dream, I want to keep a boutique, I want to have a boutique firm is kind of what I'm going for. Yeah, I really just want friends.
Keeley Hubbard 38:58
I think there's a way to leverage that too, and how you position it, you know, just from a sales perspective, people don't want to be a part of something where everybody can join. That's why people buy country club memberships, they like things that are exclusive. And so if you really do make it an exclusive investor club, or an exclusive investor list, where you only accept X amount per quarter, or this money per year, they have to interview for it, then there is a lot more attraction to that. And you can also maintain the culture of your investor list and you know, potentially do those fun things like the events that you're talking about in the future. And who knows, maybe host something in Thailand, right? I'm gonna try to get on that investor list by the way, so I
Brian Briscoe 39:35
might not event Playa Del Carmen sounds awesome. You know, so that's been on my bucket list for a while but yeah, I like it's a definitely, you know, in flux capital came together. Two of my partners are huge surfers, you know, and the first thing we talked about was, it was Costa Rica, not Mexico for us. Let's all get together bring our and we kind of had this idea that we'd pay for investors who reached a certain threshold to come down hang out with us. But a lot of the things you said there, you know, it's it's the type of thing that I think a lot of people are looking for. and achievable is the answer. So we haven't achieved it yet. But we will be good. All right, what else you got? Melanie?
Melanie McDaniel 40:15
Well, I had a question about markets. But you kind of already answered that. So I'm not going to poke and prod you for where you're looking outside of Texas, I'm telling you, I'll tell you,
Keeley Hubbard 40:24
in Iowa, in Des Moines, Iowa. So we've got a really great broker contacts there, I just think you can find what you believe is the best market out there. But if you can't raise capital there, it doesn't matter. Right? Like your investors have to be on board. And so that's what we're, we're just trying to figure out, Okay, how do we find a property where our capital raises one and a half to 2 million versus five, something that would be easier to fund and do a smaller deal there to get proof of concept. So there's some little markets like that. But again, it's so hard to go out of state when you're in Texas, and you can drive you know, wherever you need to go to manage your properties and tour and everything else. So that's why we've been focused on Texas so much.
Melanie McDaniel 41:06
Yeah, I've been focused on the big Central Texas in North Carolina just because it's always at the top of lists, but I'm kind of finding not even that I could find a GP probably in all of those markets. But I'm kind of liking the secondary markets a little more just a little more bang for your buck. And yeah, I don't like overpaying on anything. I love a good discount sale.
Brian Briscoe 41:29
Do I'd say one thing is, is get your investors accustom. If you're going to change focus on region, you know, that's that's the time to use your distro list and just start talking about other markets like hey, you know what, you know, we've been investing in Carolinas and this is from, from my perspective, we've been investing in Carolinas and I know, we've told you guys how wonderful the Carolinas is, but wow, Augusta, and in before we started a race in August, so we started sending some information out about, hey, we found this, you know, little gem of a city, you know, it's called Augusta, Georgia. And we pushed a bunch of information to our district list that just talked about Augusta, you know, and it was one of those things where, up until then we've said Carolinas, Carolinas, Carolinas, upstate Greenville, Spartanburg. And we kept on throwing numbers and stats from those markets. Adam, then ended the day when we found a great place in Augusta. We just started doing, you know, slowly changing. And, you know, here's a little teaser on Augusta, here's a little info sheet on Augusta, here's how awesome Augusta is. And then a month after that, hey, we've got a deal in Augusta. And here's the webinar information. So, you know, you got to slowly kind of change their their ideas if they're used to Texas, and solely get them used to the idea of Iowa. So, all right, but we're about out of time here. So I got one more question for both of you. And that's how can our listeners learn more about you Keeley You go first.
Keeley Hubbard 42:53
Well, you can reach me. My email is just contact at Kelly Hubbard COMM And I would say to that if you're out there, and you're thinking about raising capital, it's probably one of the biggest frustrations for most syndicators because they don't have a sales background. So I've got a simple playbook that I'd be happy to email you for free. If you shoot me an email, I will send it over to you hopefully find it helpful. All right,
Brian Briscoe 43:14
awesome. And we'll have that information in the show notes. So you can just tap her email address. And, you know, if you got your phone set up, right, it'll just automatically send something so good enough, Melanie, how about you?
Melanie McDaniel 43:26
Well, my website is freestyle Capital Group calm so people can go there and read about the bio, my bio is there. You can't leave the page without a pop up trying to get you to sign up to the newsletter and my little gift there is 16 reasons multifamily, maybe the unicorn investment. So they can, they'll put their email into that and it will subscribe them to the newsletter, but they'll get that free download. Or they can join at the moment the non exclusive investor club. Could be one day where I have my investor base. I think that's a great idea to make it exclusive.
Brian Briscoe 44:04
Yeah, be one and Melanie's 200 that you know will eventually be meeting in Mexico. Okay, go to her website. You know, fill out that form. Information is going to be in the show notes. Check out the show notes. Tap it and look forward to hanging out with Melanie on the beach in Playa Del Carmen or Costa Rica or whatever. So Dominican. Yeah, there's so many opportunities was really big here. So anyway, thank you ladies for coming on the show. I really appreciate your time. And I think this is going to be the best episode ever.
Keeley Hubbard 44:36
Yes, ever, ever meeting your cue? To Melanie, thank you for having us, Brian. This has been a lot of fun.
Brian Briscoe 44:43
Yep. Thank you. Thanks, Brian. All right. And that's a wrap.
Thank you for listening to the divergent apartment investor podcast today brought to you by four oaks capital. If you'd like to know more about how to invest in apartment buildings or want to be So in our show, visit our website at four oaks capital comm slash podcast, or email us directly. If you're still listening, you obviously like the show. So pull out your phone, tap, subscribe, and leave us a five star rating on your favourite podcast app. And we'll see you again next week.
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