First Deal Episode with Joe Rinderknecht
Episode 146 of the Diary of an Apartment Investor Podcast with Joe Rinderknecht. Transcript by Otter.ai – please forgive any errors.
Brian Briscoe 0:00
What advice would you give an aspiring investor who's six to 12 months behind you,
Joe Rinderknecht 0:05
you know your goals and dreams. So build the foundation. Now, you know, there's so much content out there that even though you haven't done it, you can start building systems. I think that's very important. Just start building your foundation. And the other thing that I'll add on top of that is as you're building it, add a ton of value to somebody that is doing what you want to do what you learn by doing that, even though you're not getting paid, will talk leaps and bounds once you do get a deal because now you're so much more valuable. So that's what I would say is build your foundation and add value to those who are doing what you want to be doing.
Brian Briscoe 0:41
Welcome to the diamond apartment investor podcast. I'm your host Brian Briscoe with four oaks capital and very excited for today's show. It's one of our first deal series episodes.
Welcome to the diary of an apartment investor podcast with your host Brian Briscoe. In this podcast we bring some of the top professionals in the apartment investment field to discuss various aspects of the apartment investing journey with the sole purpose of educating listeners to make wise investment decisions. The Diary of an apartment investor podcast is sponsored by four oaks capital bringing you high yield returns through apartment complex investing. This is episode number 146, and part of our first deal series. Today we speak with Joe Rinder Connect, and we talked about how he closed on a 32 unit apartment complex and Brigham City Utah for $2 million. And now this show, and we have Joe Rinderknecht on the line with us who recently closed on a 24 unit property in Brigham City, Utah, for $2 million. And one interesting thing about this, and what we'll get into it later, is they're going to turn the 24 unit property into a 3032 unit property. Is that right show? Yep. 32 All right, awesome. So Joe, welcome to the to the show today, and thanks for thanks so much for coming on.
Joe Rinderknecht 2:01
Yeah, thanks for having me on, Brian. I'm excited to do this.
Brian Briscoe 2:05
Yeah. And I'm super excited. I'm excited for every show. And I say that every time but very excited for this one. Because you know, Brigham city is a place that I know well. You know, I went to high school down the road from Brigham and I used to go up to Broome for a lot of sporting events. So I would imagine that, you know, when I drive to this property may actually look familiar to me. So that's a very possibly, yeah. So that said, Joe, tell us, tell us a little about yourself. Give us an idea of your background and your history and kind of walk us up to how you got into apartment investing.
Joe Rinderknecht 2:37
Yeah, for sure. So, you know, grew up mostly Utah, Idaho, my dad was a finished carpenter. And that's kind of how I learned a little bit about building. You know, I've done everything in construction that you can think of, but finished trimming was what I learned the most, you know, all through high school. Kind of interesting, I was going to school to be an X ray tech, and then had some major life events happen. You know, one of which I'm sure we'll talk about for a second here later, got into entrepreneurship, building businesses. And then, you know, at a time in my life, when my wife and I were, interestingly enough working for my demos and living with my in laws, we decided we had to get out of their house. And we went and bought a duplex and saw the power of passive income and, and, you know, rental income. And since then, you know, that was back in 2016. When we bought that first duplex, you know, we bought four Plex flipped a few properties, and now we're working on buying apartment complexes.
Brian Briscoe 3:38
Yeah. Now, when you bought that duplex, did you have an idea of the power of real estate and collecting rents and things? Or is it just kind of something that was available?
Joe Rinderknecht 3:49
Yeah, we didn't really I'd had a few mentors through the years that I had talked to about real estate, but they were more wholesalers fix and flippers. And so I didn't really understand it, you know, we bought this duplex out of need more than anything. And we actually bought like the most expensive duplex that was on the market at the time. But once we got into it, we fixed it up. You know, it increased in value, like 30 grand within the first is like four months. And we're like, Oh, dang. Like, this is pretty cool. You know, the other thing that's cool about it was we were only paying like three $400 on our rent are on our mortgage. Right? And so like, this is really cool. We're living in a basement and like that one bed studio and renting out the three bed above us.
Brian Briscoe 4:41
Nice. So you're receiving a rental income from the the three bedroom part of the duplex above you you're applying that towards your rent and you're living for dirt cheap, essentially. Yeah, it's pretty good being college students. Yeah, right. I mean, $300 a month. You can't get rent like that. almost anywhere in the us right now. So 300 bucks a month. All right, your college students, you're paying your rent, the the price of the place is going up, you're fixing it up, you're making it better. And you know, sounds like a win win win win. So, yeah, I mean, awesome. That's, that's a great, great way of getting in. I know a lot of people have talked about the idea of house hacking, the small multifamily. And another really good example that actually works. Well.
Joe Rinderknecht 5:26
I just say I can, this may be your next question. But I'll just add to that, too, is, you know, we still actually live in that same duplex just because we have pretty big dreams, and goals. And so we're, we're living there right now. So that we can, it's going to be funny, because we're going to go from a duplex to like kind of our dream house. The thing that was really cool about that duplex is kind of the power of leverage. You know, I was able to buy my next investment property, a four Plex with it from the equity of that duplex. And we now Airbnb the basement out and are grossing like 1800 bucks a month on it. So that Wow, very first property has been extremely instrumental to where we are right now.
Brian Briscoe 6:11
So you guys have moved upstairs now and you're in a three bedroom. Okay.
Joe Rinderknecht 6:14
Yep. Yeah, yeah, we got more kids. We can have Yeah, cribs in the basement. Yeah, it's
Brian Briscoe 6:19
hard to hard to live with kids in a studio. And I've got five kids. So yeah, if I ever broach this subject with my wife of let's let's buy a little four Plex and rent it out, just like, where are we going to put five kids in a four Plex, you know, but yeah, makes a lot of sense. And you bring up something that's really important is, you guys are sacrificing now with living in this duplex to be able to have what you want later. I think that's a big part of being successful in real estate and being successful investing. You control your expenditures, and you invest. And it looks like that's what you're doing you you buy this duplex. You live in it, you live very modestly, while you're taking all of your other money and investing into larger Real Estate projects. Yeah, exactly. All right. Awesome. So one thing I want to ask and I love this question is, I like to talk to everybody about their big burning, why, you know, their, their motivation for, for what they do. So what what is your big burning? Why, you know, what keeps you in that, you know, three unit or that three bedroom duplex, when you can probably afford something a lot bigger.
Joe Rinderknecht 7:27
Yeah, I've got two very big wise, and I think everybody has a very similar similar way. It's, you know, family, the freedom of time, the freedom to go, do what you want with who you want, whenever you want. You know, that's it's a big one for me. But an even bigger one is, I recently created a nonprofit, back in 2013. And I'll just, I won't expand on this a lot. But 2013, I had a major life event. At that time, I was not living the way I should have been living, if you will, I was living by what everybody else wanted me how everybody else wanted me to live. And I was in a car crash, lost my little brother and my grandma. And I don't know, you know, the listeners what religion you are in. But I was given a blessing that I had been given a second chance. And so from that day forward, I changed completely, I decided to live for me, and my brother was 20 years old at the time, I was 22. And so now, I feel that I live for Him. And you know, I've got to make my life even better, because he wasn't able to experience it. But my nonprofit is something I'm very passionate about, which is wrapped around the community and help that we received from people and, you know, portions of the income that I will make on all my deals will go to my nonprofit to help other families and other people in need that may be going through hard times. So it's very important for me to be successful so that I can help families that need help, like I was helped.
Brian Briscoe 9:15
I mean, sorry, sorry, you had to go through them. I love how you're moving forward. I mean, you're, you're using it as your second chance at life to do things better to do things, the way that you believe they should be done. And kudos to you for starting a nonprofit and giving back. I think that's that's absolutely amazing. So, yeah, thank you. That's something I actually mean, we've talked several times, and I didn't know about you. So once again, sorry, you had to go through that. But,
Joe Rinderknecht 9:40
you know, I believe everything happens for a reason. And I know that I have my brother with me still and I may not be where I am today if you know it hadn't happened. Yeah. So as a major turn of events for me.
Brian Briscoe 9:56
Well, you're you're going hopefully you're going in the right direction. Now and it sounds like you're right in the ship. So let's say that you know, that's probably the best big burning why I've heard in a while, but kind of hard to hard to follow up talking about real estate after that, but we're going to try Slidell, we're going to do it, we're going to do it, and we're going to do it. So let's talk about this 24 unit that you purchased. First thing I want to do is talk about building the team. Because I think in a lot of cases, you have to have a team to be able to tackle something like this. So if I was involved in this transaction, and how did you, how did you meet these guys? And how did the team come together?
Joe Rinderknecht 10:36
Yeah, so my first partner, his name is Christopher Huffman, he and I met back in college. So 2014, after I decided that I was no longer going to become an X ray tech and decided to follow my dreams of being an entrepreneur. He and I met in an entrepreneurship club. And he and I, and one other gentleman created Funny enough, we started building like a tech business. And we had all these little businesses that we were building. And, you know, we had built a pretty good team for that. And then just things didn't work out. And so we dissolve the business. But man, we've learned so much from that process of building a business, a few businesses. So he and I have been friends from you know, 2014. And then we both kind of went our separate ways. I went and actually worked on this ranch that's behind me when my wife, and he started getting into development. Fast forward a few years into 2017 2018, we met up again at Campus, and start talking about what each other was doing. And I, you know, bought the duplex four Plex, and he was doing development over by Park City. And we just like, like, Hey, we need to start doing stuff together again, because we enjoyed working together earlier on. And we found I found a duplex, we renovated it flipped it. And, you know, we collectively made like 77 grand on our first duplex flip. Nice. And I think it goes back to the, the part of like, you work with people that, you know, complement your weaknesses. And he had some, you know, very good strengths, raising money and construction. And my focus was more on property management, asset management. And you know, so it was a no brainer to work with him on this Brigham city deal. And then my other partner, Dean Ellis, he and I met, we have a local real estate community here called renautas. That we're both part of, and he and I have been on multiple multifamily masterminds. And we'd always talked about for three, four years and always talked about doing a deal together. And, and by when Christopher and I were looking for a guarantor, and he was the first one that came to my mind, so we brought him in. And, you know, he brought in just little over a little under half the money and has been a huge asset to our team and making it very successful. And I think you got to go in with people that you trust. And I definitely believe the adage of, you know, I'm team, I'm a team made millionaire, right? I'm not a self made, and the team is hugely important. So those are my two partners.
Brian Briscoe 13:34
That sounds like a similar story, get getting replayed out. You did a lot of networking, you were involved in masterminds, you're involved in meetup groups, that all had similar people have similar interests. So people have similar interests are coming together. You're talking about entrepreneurship, you're talking about real estate. And after participating in that for a long time you find somebody who works well with you. You know, Chris, and the other gentleman who you guys are not partnered with on this much larger deal, but yeah, I love it. I love it. And I think that's I like what you how you said team made millionaire, not a self made millionaire, because it absolutely takes a team to get there. I would say the most self made millionaires are probably not self made. If you really start peeling back the start peeling the onion, you're looking beneath the surface. So I'm sure until let's let's look at some of the challenges. We've talked about building the team. How did you kind of educate yourself into the business and you're talking about something other challenges you had, you're getting started with multifamily career?
Joe Rinderknecht 14:36
Yeah, so I would say that the last deal that I had done before this property was back in 2018. So I have not I had not bought a property from 2018 to now. And it's because I made the decision to go multifamily. At the beginning. Christopher and I right, we had flipped a few duplexes. We had started residential property management company. And we were going to owners and just saying, Hey, you know, we can do our best to increase revenue, decrease expenses, you know, maybe rub back some utilities. And you know, I like property management, so I was passionate about it. And then I was under contract on a 44 unit apartment complex, just, you know, the university. And when I reached out to commercial property management company, they came back with their budget, and were showing me that I could increase my other income, you know, ancillary income by 120 grand a year. And it just blew my mind as to like, how is that even possible, and, you know, the pretty much the owner, the guy that sent me That bill has become one of my greatest mentors today, because I jumped on a phone call, and he taught, he told me like how this is possible, I didn't end up getting that deal closed. But two months later, I went to work for that company. Because I was like, I have to, I have to learn this. Right. So I stopped doing the residential property management burn that ship completely, and just went to work. And that's been one of the biggest instrumental events to get me to where I am today, because they threw me in on an 80 unit light tech property, you know, section 42, Section A, and it was high delinquency high, they can see a lot of drug activity there. And I never even met the property manager. So it was trial by fire. But from that experience, I learned how to take a very bad run asset at that time by the property manager, you just kind of let it go. And we turned it, you know, within eight months, got rid of all the drugs got, you know, we had like one vacancy, less than $1,000 in delinquency. You know, I've learned so much from that process. And plus, on top of that, how to do all the government totally document. So that was one of the biggest things and I, you know, it underwrote a lot of deals. And that three years, I just learned everything that I could. We've talked about, you know, networking, I networked a lot, you know, went to Neil Bauer's boot camps have gone to a few other boot camps. rocklea satem, Adams, learned a lot of talking to people and learning as much as I can so that when that deal came, I was ready. And I think it goes back to just, you know, what your dreams and goals are? So build a foundation now. And you know, so that when you get that deal, then you're not like, Hey, now what do I do?
Brian Briscoe 17:39
The one thing that I want to bring back up, which I think is really great that you did you, you found that new property manager, you know, commercial property manager, you realize that he was like, next level of good compared to what you were doing. And you decided to go learn from him. I mean, you took a job with him, and you decided to learn from him. How to do property management better. Alright, how does that translated to what you're doing now with this 24 unit?
Joe Rinderknecht 18:07
Well, you know, the people that taught me the, the gal that taught me, is now my regional for my property. So now I'm not gonna say they work for me, because we work together. So we work, we are working together to reposition this asset and, and really, truly make this property, you know, its highest and best use. So they've got a lot of industry knowledge, you know, they run about 10,000 units. So they're very experienced. And, you know, just having that kind of partnership, somebody that, you know, like and trust, and you're even friends with, right, I had a call with Brittany, who's my regional. And her and I have owner conversations that she's told me she's doesn't have owner conversations with anybody else, because she just doesn't have that relationship. So it's been awesome.
Brian Briscoe 18:58
Nice. Nice. So you got a lot of relationships built from there. And now they are managing your property, which I think is awesome. So Alright, let's talk specifically about the the deal itself, you know, 24 years, how did you find it? And I will just hit that. How did you find it?
Joe Rinderknecht 19:16
Yeah, one of my buddies in town, who's an agent brought it to me, it has been a property that I've known about for a few years, because I'm really good friends with the property manager, the owner of the property management company that was managing it. But when we first looked at it, it didn't make a lot of sense. And then, when my buddy max brought it to me again, we went looked at it and, you know, saw that there was more opportunity than what anybody else was looking at. And I'll just say, going back to the whole networking thing, one of the biggest things that I'm huge on is the community, right, you know, teammates like we talked about. I believe that every stranger is a friend you haven't met yet. And so, you know, Max was one of those people that was instrumental in helping me find this next deal. Yeah.
Brian Briscoe 20:13
Awesome. So So you had this this relationship with Max, he brought you the deal. And you said, there's something you guys saw about it that nobody else did to make this deal actually work out for you. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Joe Rinderknecht 20:24
Yeah, absolutely. When we went in and walked it, like this property, had been owned by the same guy for about 10 years. And he's one of those owners that did not care. He lived in Missouri. Probably hadn't seen it in five years. Right and wasn't willing to put up he's just collecting checks. And it boggles my mind, because like, that check wasn't that big on a 24 Plex. It wasn't necessarily the property management fault that it was mismanaged, just the owner was not willing to put any money into it. So you had less than desirable residents in there. You know, there's a few storage units down there where, you know, bombs sleeping in the storage units, right, it was so bad. But when we got in there, we saw that it had really good bones as built in 1951. Really, really solid bones. But these units were huge. Out of the 24 units. 12 of them were three bed 1300 square feet,
Brian Briscoe 21:24
large apartment building,
Joe Rinderknecht 21:25
large apartments. Yeah, and the two beds are like 950. So the current unit Max, there's four studios, eight, two beds that are about 950 and 12, three beds, right. And then we come wings. So on each end of the building, there's like a half basement with storage units. Right? So we got in there. And I was like, Okay, these storage units are not being used. And these three beds are huge. What What can we do here? You know, so I checked the zoning saw that we were not maxed out on, you know, what we could do? Or what's a good room to grow? Yep, yep. Yeah. And so I contacted the city and said, you know, how many units per acre can we have on this parcel? And they told us, and we're like, wow, we can add eight more units. And we're like, this is awesome, because now the three bedrooms, so the properties pretty much two levels high. It's two levels. And we have the buildings are symmetrical to each other. And so the bottom three beds are for three beds on the bottom. So we're cutting those in half, and making those into one bedrooms. And then we're turning the storage units in the half basement into two bedrooms. So the cool thing about this right is now I think we talked about this already, but you know, if you're going to do a deal, you're either first or your last. And we're definitely last. And when people are looking at it $2 million for 24 plugs in Brigham City, Utah, I'm sure none of you have heard of it. It's north of Salt Lake. It's a very small town, but it's gentrifying like crazy right now. And so our price per unit changed a lot going from 24 to 30 units, 32 units, right. And that's where we saw the opportunity we got under contract, you know, where we're going to be putting about 1.3 1.4 into it. And it's going to be an entirely new property. And we've projected based on a six and a half cap that will be worth about 4.5, within the next year. And we think that we can get even more aggressive with a cap rate. But right, we don't know what's going to happen between now and then with calves. And so you know, it could be worth closer to five and a half, just to the
Brian Briscoe 23:47
south of you. I'm in Salt Lake City B class is trading at five caps. So obviously, this is not Salt Lake City, but a class in Salt Lake City is trading, you know, the firt, the first numbers for you know, low, low to mid fours on cap rates. And there's probably class assets in Salt Lake City that are that are trading, you know, high force as far as cap rate. So yeah, I think I think you've got a solid plan there. So you took the 24 unit, you're converting it to a 32 unit by splitting some of the three bedrooms and also by taking advantage of that unused basement space. So now it sounds like you're still keeping a handful of the three bedrooms, correct?
Joe Rinderknecht 24:26
Yep, yep. So the new unit max will be four studios, there will be eight ones, well, twos and eight threes.
Brian Briscoe 24:35
So you actually have a much better mix of units as well. So you added adding some more twos and you're adding some more ones which you know, most apartment dwellers are looking for one bedroom, two bedrooms and I know the the demographics in Utah are a little different. You know, there are more three bedroom apartment renters and there are other areas of the world. But we have big families here yet lots, lots of big families. So and being Utah born and raised. I understand that so All right.
Joe Rinderknecht 25:01
So can I add one more thing to this deal really quick. So we always say to when you're looking for a property, you want to find the worst property in the best neighborhood. If you would have looked at this property five years ago, it would have been in the worst neighborhood of Brigham city. Back in World War Two, they built a whole bunch of barracks here. And more recently, they've, you know, they're vacant and a lot of drugs and people that are not supposed to be there doing things they shouldn't be doing. The university came in, bought all of that and tore down all of them outside of, you know, this, this building, which used to also be a part of that. And so now the worst part of Brigham city is now actually becoming one of the best. There's brand new construction going on around us. There's a new golf course, there's newer townhomes surrounding us, right. So that's the other thing too is this is a definitely a C class asset, that the area is now becoming a big class, it's gentrifying, you know, the universities come in, they're about to build a lot more. So I think having a really good idea of like that path of progress. Yeah, I would say outside of splitting units, that's the next thing that's really going to help us is we're gonna have natural appreciation, just with the the development that's going around us, and you know, what the university is going to be doing sooner than later.
Brian Briscoe 26:29
Yeah, and then there's a lot of So you saw the writing on the wall, you saw the area getting better. And two parts of your value, add, you know, part number one of the value add was just adding new units. But he also said part number two, the value add is basically moving it from a C class asset to a B class asset. So that means nicer finishes, some more amenities, and everything else that goes along with it. And the area supports it in order to go from C class to B class, the area supports it, you know, you saw a lot of opportunity with the area itself getting better than neighborhood getting better. And with some some very large units and unused space, took advantage of both together. And now you're going to add you bought for 2 million, and it's gonna be worth more than twice that once you're done. So yeah, I think this this sounds like an amazing deal. But let's talk real quick about financing. And then we're almost almost out of time, give us a brief rundown of how you finance the property.
Joe Rinderknecht 27:24
Yep, so we got pretty much just a bridge loan on it. You know, we're we're putting about 1.3 1.4 into it, we didn't get a straight up 75% loan to cost because it was kind of a hairy deal. As we've talked about, right, where we're gonna have 100% total turnover, there's not going to be any of the residents still there once we're done with it. Luckily, there's two buildings. So we're renovating one building at a time, but we got a loan for I believe it was 2.76 is what I told you, right, Brian? Yep. And Yep. So we raised about 1.2 5 million for it. That includes, you know, our acquisition fee and everything. The lender, we went with Bonneville capital, here in Utah was a really, really good broker. They got us what we felt were really good terms. We got 5% interest rate, and I think we just got a 12 month term, but it was really good based on you know, what Christopher had got on his last deal. And, you know, we'll work with them to get us a refinance in 12 to 16 months. Nice. Nice. And the exit plan for you, therefore is going to refinance, you're going to hold this long term or what? Yes, definitely. So we'll refinance, right? And 12 to 1612 to 18 months. And yeah, I I really like cash flow. And I see what's happening in this area. Right now, our business plan is seven years. But I would like to, you know, see what's even going on and to hold it for maybe 10 plus years. Because I think that, you know, this property has nowhere to go up, even if there is a downturn, just with the amount of land that's around us that's still developable and with what the university has planned. And as we know, right, California has moved to Nevada and Nevada is moving into Utah and Utah, you know, everything's heading north along I 15. So, you know, we might see Brigham turned into, you know, a much larger city in the coming years.
Brian Briscoe 29:28
Yeah, and I mean, I've talked about this a lot before, but I mean, Salt Lake City has pretty much filled out the valley that it's in just north of Salt Lake City have Ogden and it's pretty much filled out the valley that it's in. And the next spot north, just just north of that Willard Bay Area is Brigham you know, and so, you know, where where are people going to be moving to, you know, when Salt Lake city's fall in Ogden school, it's going to be up to Brigham. So I think that is definitely path of progress and next 10 to 15 years. I expect to see proven grow trim mendaciously. So the nice thing is when I, when I move in about a month, I'm going to be about a two hour drive from there. So, yeah, see what happens, but right and bills together? Yeah, we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to absolutely Hey, Joe. So what's next for you
Joe Rinderknecht 30:14
gonna continue building my foundation and grow, I really want to continue buying more assets. This property has taught me that it's good to have people that you trust, and to have systems, right, you can't scale unless you have systems in place people in place to be able to go and buy more. So that that's what it is, for me is building more systems, bringing more people into my life to be able to scale and grow.
Brian Briscoe 30:43
All right, and next question, what advice would you give an aspiring investor who's six to 12 months behind you?
Joe Rinderknecht 30:50
I think from what I talked about earlier, is that quote that I mentioned, you know, your goals and dreams. So build the foundation now. You know, there's so much content out there that even though you haven't done it, you can start building systems, you can, I think that's very important, just start building your foundation. And the other thing that I'll add on top of that is, as you're building it, add a ton of value to somebody that is doing what you want to do a few things that I had mentioned, you know, between now and then outside of property management, is I worked with a group, the big multifamily group as a cold caller, because I wanted to learn how to better talk to sellers, I was an underwriter for another multifamily group, you know, I didn't get paid much. I didn't get paid on anything on some of them because they didn't get a deal close. But what you learn by doing that, even though you're not getting paid, we'll talk leaps and bounds once you do get a deal, because now you're so much more valuable. So that's what I would say is build your foundation and add value to those who are doing what you want to be doing. Yeah,
Brian Briscoe 31:59
just like any any project, any construction project, building a house building apartment building, the foundation has to be solid, and you build it first. So I love I love the analogy, and I love how that plays out. All right, last question. how can listeners learn more about you?
Joe Rinderknecht 32:14
Yeah, I am on Facebook, LinkedIn, I, as of now don't do a whole bunch of social media marketing. I haven't really don't anything with website or anything like that. But the best place would be Facebook. All right. And, you know, I can give you my contact information as well.
Brian Briscoe 32:33
All right, sounds good. Well put your contact information, what you're willing to give out in the show notes. So anybody looking to get to him will have a link to his Facebook page, link to LinkedIn. You mentioned that one. And then you know, send me over the contact information you want in the show notes, and we'll make sure that gets in there. Awesome.
Joe Rinderknecht 32:49
Thank you so much, Brian. I'm really excited and happy that I got to do this with you.
Brian Briscoe 32:53
Yeah. Well, hey, thanks for coming on and look forward to you know, meeting you face to face here soon.
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai