First Deal Episode with Heshel Mangel



Episode 148 of the Diary of an Apartment Investor Podcast with Heshel Mangel. Transcript by Otter.ai – please forgive any errors.


Listen to the episode here




Brian Briscoe 0:00

All right, so what advice would you give an aspiring investor who's maybe six to 12 months out from getting their first deal,


Heshel Mangel 0:06

network, you know, build relationships with people. That's ultimately what drives the business is when you get out there, show your face, build relationships, build real relationships, he consistent, I think is a huge thing. His business has ups and downs and there's no guarantees from one day to the next every day is different. Just try to go out there be consistent and find common ground with service people around you with other people in the industry, where you can add value to people and ultimately, just build relationships with people.


Brian Briscoe 0:40

Welcome to the diary of an apartment investor podcast with your host Brian Briscoe. In this podcast we bring some of the top professionals in the apartment investment field to discuss various aspects of the apartment investing journey with the sole purpose of educating listeners to make wise investment decisions. The Diary of an apartment investor podcast is sponsored by four oaks capital bringing you high yield returns through apartment complex investing. This is journal entry number 148. And part of our first deal series today we bring back Heschel, Mangle, who was our aspiring investor on episode number 19. almost a full year ago, we talked about how he recently closed on a 32 unit p class apartment in Cincinnati, Ohio. And contrary to the name first deal series, this is not his first deal. And now the show. Welcome to the Dyer and apartment investor podcast. I'm your host, Brian Briscoe with four oaks capital. Very excited for today's show. It's one of our first deal series episodes. And we have Heschel Mangle on the line with us today who recently closed on a 32 unit apartment complex in Cincinnati, Ohio, for $1.5 million. And it was a B class apartment. So that said hello. Welcome to the show.


Heshel Mangel 1:47

Thank you, Brian. It's good to be back. Yeah,


Brian Briscoe 1:49

you know, and this is this is interesting. You were one of the first people to come on the show in almost a year. And you were Episode 19, which was a long running number one, you know, as far as downloads for this show is the first first one hit 300 downloads, first one to hit 400 downloads, and the first episode hit 500 downloads. So you know something about us magical. So thanks a lot for being on the show again.


Heshel Mangel 2:12

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I wish I can take credit for that one. But that Joseph who was the lead on that one was dropping insights the entire time and absolutely gold. So yeah, credit to him.


Brian Briscoe 2:24

Yeah, I mean, that was absolutely pure gold. I was taking notes. I mean, you know, we've come a little ways ourselves since that episode recorded, but I was definitely taking notes. And I really listened to that in a couple of times, just to hear what he had said, again, about scaling and growing your business. But that said, let's talk a little bit more about that episode in detail. What are some key takeaways you had from that? And? And how did that help you?


Heshel Mangel 2:47

Yeah, so some things that I took out from that talk with Joseph. And he's been so gracious with his time as well even post that and continuing the conversation. But he definitely opened my eyes to the idea of just thinking bigger, you know, jumping into bigger opportunities, and just open your box and open your mindset a little bit and think bigger, and then be able to grow bigger, the way that he scaled has been incredible, and to just really know your place, understand your strengths, and then fill the rest of the gaps with great people. Yeah. And both of those, I think points when you bring them together really allowed me to continue to operate in that way and just continue to grow and have that mindset of continuing trying to get bigger.


Brian Briscoe 3:24

Yeah, one, Jim, that I remember from is you asked him a question about doing stuff yourself versus having other people do it. And his answer was simple as like, don't start. He's like, don't start doing that stuff. He's like, have somebody else do that from the beginning. And that's something that it's been a year from that conversation. And I probably haven't listened to an episode and you know, about six months, but something that I still remember he just said, Hey, just don't start it. He's like, if, if it's something that you're going to offload eventually or something, you're going to outsource eventually, and you're not good at it, don't start doing it yourself. And that's, that's something that helped help me as well. I think that was the nail in the coffin for me to actually outsource getting my podcast edited. Because I was doing all that stuff myself and spending a lot of time on it. I'm like, you know what, he's right. I shouldn't have even started this. I should have outsourced it from the beginning. But that's it. Let's let's talk a little bit about you. And tell us a little bit about your background and what got you into multifamily. Or so


Heshel Mangel 4:18

my background, I'm born and bred here in Cincinnati, Ohio, left at about high school age and did made a couple stops around the world ultimately got married and settled in New York while I was living in New York and I was actually a teacher at the time is when I first got my really my introduction into this whole space in general. And just went aggressively and trying to learn as much as I can about the industry did have a couple of friends that were in there were in this industry and just hearing from them about you know the type of opportunities that have brought them and the lifestyle that it brings them really intrigued me. So just went aggressively from that point to learn as much as I can speak to as many people as I can. I started doing a couple of smaller projects while I was still living in New York. operating in Cincinnati, which is where I'm from, and then ultimately made the move back to Cincinnati as we were able to grow it out a little bit and be able to scale a little bit better.


Brian Briscoe 5:07

Nice. Yeah. And I remember when you came on the episode last time you had accumulated, I think, 55 total units, you know, a couple if I remember I call it a couple small multifamily and a couple larger ones. Can you tell us what your portfolio was like, then and what it's like now?


Heshel Mangel 5:22

Yeah. So at that point, there was five remember correctly, as well as a couple of single families and then two apartment buildings. That was the bulk of it. Since then, it's been about a year I say I would say closed on three other properties since then, and we're getting ready to close one here in about a week on an awesome on other multifamily.


Brian Briscoe 5:41

Yeah, well, congratulations, you guys have been extremely busy. And that's, that's great. So So let's talk about your your why your big burning why I think this is an important things. It's, it's what drives us. So what is your big burning? Why?


Heshel Mangel 5:54

Yeah, so the Why is my family, the opportunities for my family just a case in point, I was a little bit late to today's meeting, and I was due to take my daughter to school today, who is feeling a little bit unwell and had to be taken to school late, and just the opportunity for me to be able to be available. And therefore my family, whenever it's needed is really my why that drives that every single every day. And really every decision I try to make within the business is catering to me being available to my family. And that's really what's most important. And at the same token is being able to have the opportunity to give and give back to organizations and issues that I believe in is really important to me as well. And when I have the opportunity to be able to give back and special.


Brian Briscoe 6:34

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And that's that aligns very closely to what my Why is, I mean, I started this business three years ago to be able to live close to family, you know, and I'm now in Idaho Falls, which is, you know, close to family. So, you know, we're about two blocks away from two of my wife, sisters, you know, slightly different directions. But you know, we're we're close to family, it was something that my w two job I wouldn't have been able to do. And that big burning y for me, it really fueled me. So being available to your kids is huge. And I know they'll thank you for it. Many years from now, probably not when they're teenagers. But you know, hopefully when they're in their 30s, they'll they'll reach back and thank you for it. But so let's talk about this particular deal itself, let's so 3032 units Cincinnati, and I know it's in the same Metro you're in. So let's talk about how you found a deal. First of all,


Heshel Mangel 7:23

I found the deal through a broker that I've built a relationship with over the last few years, he brought me a different deal originally, that was owned by the same owner, and we decided we weren't going to pursue that opportunity. But in conversation, we realized that there was actually another property that he owned, that he wasn't really interested in selling at the time. But we were able to continue to, you know, stay in touch and follow up with that. And eventually we were able to come to terms and secure the contract for this property, which is one that we ultimately closed on. Nice, nice.


Brian Briscoe 7:53

Now, how long How long did you know this broker before, you know, he brought you that first deal?


Heshel Mangel 7:59

It's been at least two years. And we we always stay in touch. You know, we're always staying in touch in terms of what opportunities are out there. And we've done a couple of projects and work together and some other things in the past. But this is the first multifamily deal that we actually close together. But we've we you know, always staying in touch and in contact over the last couple years.


Brian Briscoe 8:16

Yeah, that's a big thing. I mean, it's nice to have a lot of brokers. And it's I think it's kind of hard for the newer investor to build that broker relationship. I think a lot of brokers are closed off. But, you know, basically two years since you knew him before you close your first big multifamily deal. And I don't think that's a typical, I think there's a lot of people who you takes a long time to build those relationships of trust, you know, and that's something for a lot of people that's a struggle at first is to be able to get that that relationship with the broker. Now, what are the type of stuff did you do? I mean, whatever you said, you had other business with him, what type of stuff did you do with him?


Heshel Mangel 8:49

Well, I actually was involved with a single family deal with him as well. And we've done some work on a couple of a couple of rehabs trying to remember exactly which property it was. And there was another deal actually, that we were working on a large multifamily deal that we almost secured the contract, and then it was kind of tucked tucked away from under us at the last minute. But we've definitely had, you know, cross paths have done a few different things over the last couple years. Okay.


Brian Briscoe 9:16

All right. So so all good things, you know, and I mean, the fact that you had an LLP, and and almost got a contract previously, you know, he knew that you guys were we're serious, you knew you were ready, you had an in your case, you're different than the people come on the first deal because this is not your first deal. Or if you had a lot of experience prior to to kind of gain that credibility with the broker. So broker brought you a deal wasn't the right one for you. And you ended up you know, working with the broker and the owner to get another one of the owners properties under contract. Right. Yeah. All right. So tell us about the property. Tell us about the business plan.


Heshel Mangel 9:52

So it's it's it's 32 units. Now the actual the bulk of the property is actually 30 units and there's a duplex a few minutes away was that You know, included as part of the sale. And I do want to say that, although this wasn't my first deal, there are aspects of it that that are the first. And there's always things that you can learn from each deal. And there's, you know, I'm sure there'll be things on every deal that will be the first time for that deal. The big thing for me, and this deal was, it's the first time that that I was securing the debt, you know, with my own balance sheet, which ultimately, we ran into some issues towards the end, and definitely some things that we learned from the future. But it was it's a huge step to being able to continue to scale and, you know, bring in new investors and partners, once you can capitalize on that ability. Nice, nice.


Brian Briscoe 10:37

So it's a B class, it's a 30. unit is is there renovations is a value add plan is a buy and hold? what's what's your play on this one?


Heshel Mangel 10:45

Yeah, so the the, the beauty of this property is that it was cash flowing from day one. And that's what we are looking to do with our properties, we want it to be cash flowing on day one. And at the same time, be able to continue to add value and give, you know, a higher rate of return for our investors. And then the third metric that we look at before buying the property is that at the end of eight, our entire basis with after renovations, and everything we do is going to be below the actual property values, we want to be able to have it cash flowing right away, increase the value and be in it for less than what it's worth. And this one hits all those three boxes, where it was, you know, a very stable cash flowing property right away, we've started going in there and already making improvements both on the interiors and exteriors adding value to the existing residents and future residents, and ultimately will be in it for less than one's values.


Brian Briscoe 11:37

No, no, I like that. Because the things you say the things you just said, are things that bring good returns, but also mitigate risk. You know, so so you're looking at this from both angles, after everything is said and done, you want the basis to be lower than the property price. You know, that's nice for two reasons. Number one, like I said, it just mitigates the risk. I mean, there there's low risk there of loss of money, you buying a cash flowing asset, you know, once again, very low risk of loss, because you're the cash is already coming in, you're already able to cover your debt service, and hopefully pay your investors back a little bit. And then the value add portion. You know, if you do that properly, and you're looking at the comps properly, that's a way where you guys can force the appreciation. And what I didn't hear you say, and I love this is that you're banking on market appreciation, you know, it'll it'll probably happen. But you know that the three things you said are entirely under your control? And you know, so you're mitigating risk, and you're able to provide solid returns. And if the market appreciates, it likely will, you know, that's just icing on the cake. So, so good on that one. All right, so let's let's talk about the capital raise, how much do you raise for this? And how much did you contribute yourself?


Heshel Mangel 12:49

Yes, we raised about $500,000.50 of that was from myself, and then four and from 50 came from our partners. And that was process of raising the capital. And, you know, thankfully, we started at a place where we already had mutual understanding and mutual respect for each other. And that makes it a lot easier to run a deal when you know who your partners are. And everybody's comfortable working with each other. So it was no real sales pitch in terms of having to sell myself or their the way, you know that we would operate the deal, because we all had that common ground already. So you know that that's really been helpful for me, and also in the in future deals in the deal that that we're closing now. And, and probably for the foreseeable future, is the way I'll go about it is just people within my existing network or you know, an existing investor telling their friend or their relative, hey, I've done this deal with them. I think there's something you would be interested in, and kind of letting the deal speak for itself. Yeah,


Brian Briscoe 13:47

yeah. And that's, that's a very important point, you know, you you had credibility with these people prior to asking them to invest. And I think, you know, a common mistake that a lot of people make, is they have the idea that if you have a good deal, the money will come I think it's the opposite, you know, you have to have the relationship with investors, you have to have that credibility with investors, before you pitch them that good deal, or that money is not going to come so so you had fostered relationship with people, they trusted you. And something that I also think is important is you're putting your own money into the deal, you know, so a $500,000 raise, you've got 10% of the total capital stack there. And you can basically say, Hey, I'm investing $50,000 of my own money. Will you invest with me? And that's, that's a lot different than I've got a project and I want you to invest, will you please give me some money to invest? So Good, good. I think there's a lot, a lot of little golden nuggets there and what you said, fostering the relationships, and then being able to capitalize on the relationships you've already built and the trust and confidence you've already built with people.


Heshel Mangel 14:52

Yeah, I think it for for someone who's listening to this and maybe thinking like, oh, I've never done a deal before. How do I build that credibility? credibility? is not only built from, I think a previous deal that you might have done with this person or something else, you know, you can build credibility and trust. In many ways. Sometimes you can even build credibility and trust from deals that you did not do, which is very important. And I think that we don't see it enough of people talking about deals that they didn't do. And that builds trust, as well, when they see that you're, you're honest, in your underwriting, you're honest, and you're reporting, and you're explaining to people why this deal he didn't think would be a good opportunity for them to get into, you know, that builds trust as well. And then, you know, in your every day, just relationships, and the way you deal with people, and the way you conduct your lifestyle, you know, builds that trust and credibility as well. So, you know, it's not only from, oh, I've done 10 deals, look me trust me, because, you know, and there are, unfortunately, probably people that have done 1020 deals that are not trustworthy. So I would say, you know, look past just the amount of experience that you may think you have or don't have, and look for ways really just be, you know, honest and personable. And ultimately, you end up building the trust.


Brian Briscoe 15:58

Yeah, I think that's huge. I mean, especially for the newcomer, you know, it's, it's something where you can take your previous life experiences, your previous life skills, your previous life related relationships, and apply them to, you know, the multifamily the apartment investing business. And that's something that you you said very, very eloquently, you know, you can just be a good person be trustworthy. And that by itself is going to go a long way in being able to attract capital, and it's time to do that. So, yeah, well, let's, let's talk about closing, you mentioned earlier, there was some hitches with closing, let's talk about the closing process, some of the hitches and how you guys overcame those?


Heshel Mangel 16:40

Yes, so the closing process was going quite smooth. And then let's say about three days after closing was scheduled, when you get a message from the lender, like a Actually, we need to change some things, and that through quite a wrench into the deal. We had quite a lot of, of my own personal money already locked up in a deal in earnest money and due diligence, money and legal fees and everything else. And, you know, they they want to come at the end, after we were meant to close and changing terms. And I don't know exactly why that occurred. You know, the the entire process was a transparent process. I think ultimately, there are many different departments and levels and hierarchy within a bank structure. And things can be a little bit of broken telephone, I think when you go up and down the totem pole, right. And you know, there's only one level, that's the face of the deal that's communicating with you as the as the customer. And many levels beyond that, that don't interface with the customer. And especially when you're dealing with a bank that's relationship based. It's you want it's important to have relationships with the people that are ultimately making the decisions.


Brian Briscoe 17:49

Now, what what terms what terms? Did they change? And how does that affect, you know, you going forward? I mean, were they significant enough to make you pause and say, Can we still do this deal? Or what type of terms? Did they change on this?


Heshel Mangel 18:02

Yeah, there were definitely moments where there was pause of can we still do this deal. And, you know, I reiterated to them, and really all the parties entire time is at the end of the day, I'm fiduciary for my investors money, and it's not going to be good for them, we're going to walk away, you know, personally, I had money in the deal that I would have lost. But at the end the day, they got to understand that the deal has to work for those who have financial interest in the deal. And for and for those that I'm representing. And if it doesn't work for them, we can't do it. And ultimately, I think they appreciated that. And we were able to continue to finagle around and negotiate both with them and the and the owner to get the deal done in a manner that worked for everybody. But there definitely were moments throughout it that where we weren't sure if the deal was going to get what's going to get done. They wanted more capital, first of all, and a reserve account, they wanted some extra contingencies. Because being at this was the first deal that I was guaranteeing on my own, they decided they want a lot a lot more contingencies. And I don't know even know exactly, exactly what but ultimately, we were able to come to an agreement as to, you know, how much we should put down and reserve what other contingencies is we're going to be and how we're going to kind of operate the deal going forward. And then, you know, they wanted to do another appraisal and another report and another report. So that kind of took a bit. And at that point, a lot of a lot of it was just time because at that point, we were out of contract. And the owner at that point said like, you know, the contract is over, you know, he's taking the earnest money. And he's like, Listen, the deal is over, if you want to get the deal back, you know, meet me at this time in this place. We'll have a half hour chat and debate. We'll know Are we closing or not? Yeah. You know, let's lay it all on the table. And we did that. And he was very responsive and appreciative of me showing up and being honest with exactly what was going on. And I think that calmed him down as to our ability to close at that point. And so once we were able to get him back in the investors had to have to have buy in again because at that point, the bank had And requests that those investors should give them some more information about their background as well. So we had their buy in, and at that point, you know, that we were able to close.


Brian Briscoe 20:09

Alright, nice. Yeah. So So yeah, significant hitches. I mean, you did this basic and made the deal fall out of contract. And, um, you You risked your earnest money, I mean, they call it risk capital for a reason, because it's always a risk. I mean, you've paid some money for the due diligence, you probably pay the loan application fees, and obviously, the earnest money, which the the seller is entitled to, you know, if you don't close. So, there, there's obviously, you know, lots of risk there. But end of the day, you were able to you bring all parties to the table, and hey, let's get this thing done. And what I think I mean, most sellers, you know, and I've been, you know, a seller a couple of times, but most sellers, you they are obviously interested in getting the best price possible. But they don't want to be strung out either. You know, that's, that's kind of a big thing. You know, if you can't close in the contract period, you know, the question that they're gonna be asking themselves, is, if I give them another chance, are they going to be able to close it? You know, because the last thing they want is to have their property tied up for an extended period of time. So sounds like you went back to the table with him, you convinced him that you're able, you're going to be able to close? And got this across the finish line?


Heshel Mangel 21:19

Yeah. So you know, a couple of things there. And that was really well, how you put it all together, but the understanding there are multiple parties involved and having to keep all the pieces glued together, you know, from the lender, to the owner to the investors. You know, there's the insurance company, the legal title, everybody, just keeping all the people involved was super important, and being transparent with everybody about exactly what's going on was super important. And from the owner side of it, yeah, I mean, you know, and it added another level that they were actually relying on this clothing for a 1031 that the owner was doing. So, you know, they needed to be sure that this was going to close, because they have timeframes, you know, and they have a time that they have to keep to so just making sure that everybody is aware of what's going on. And keeping everybody involved was key to being able to actually bring this back to closing.


Brian Briscoe 22:05

All right, well, congratulations on getting that across the finish line and negotiating the the actual finish on that one. So let's talk about the first step. After closing you closed in April, it's June, how have things gone so far?


Heshel Mangel 22:18

Yeah, I mean, thank God, it's gone really well. The first thing that we do after closing is we have a questionnaire we give to all the residents, we want their feedback as to what is good, what isn't good, why they like living there, what would they want to see changed, and we let them tell us kind of what they would have wanted to see out of out of the property out of the community that they live in. So obviously, as we do due diligence, you know, we're going through and creating our own list of different improvements we want to make on the property, both interior and exterior. And then we take their list as well. And we are able to get a good idea as to both from our perspective, as well as current residents and locals and what their perspective is. And, you know, thankfully, we've been able to go ahead and really implement that plan. So far really well, the bulk of it is has actually been so far exterior improvements, power washing, landscaping, really making the exterior clean, you know, putting up a new new sign, you know, the rebranding of it, and cleaning the infilling and, you know, potholes in the driveway, things that the residents have really been able to see that, you know, they've come in, and I've been able to deliver on on what they have told us they were going to do, and they're listening to us. And people see they drive by they come by and they see that it's, it's being taken care of well, and then at the same time interior improvements. So they were you know, if they're pressing needs, from individual residents that I told us that these, you know, they've had these issues or that issues. So those were the first things that were that we were able to tackle on the interiors, just fixing maintenance issues that have been built up over time. And then the third part of it is then rehabbing the vacant units and improving those to be able to get higher rents.


Brian Briscoe 23:53

Yeah, really nice there. And there's something I really like you guys involve your tenants, you know, and this is that there's something that can be said about building a community, you know, if your tenants are involved, they're more likely to renew you know, and that's, that's huge from from a bottom line standpoint. But number one, it helps build community. You know, if you have tenants who've been there, they make relationships with their neighbors, and it makes them less likely to leave. And for your bottom line, I think the most expensive thing that happens operating an apartment building is when people move out, because when people move out, you're going to spend for number one, you're going to have an empty unit with nobody paying rent and number two, there are going to be turned costs and you're gonna go in your your spent cost cleaning or to spend cost fixing up minor things. And you know, if you can get the tenant to stay in for a year or sign a renewal, that saves you a lot of money and keeps keeps money coming in as well. So involving your tenants. I think the smart move, I think the curb appeal goes a long way to showing the tenants that that you guys are going to make that you care about the place. You want to make it look better. And they're going to see that immediately. They're going to see that it's it's getting better. And once again, that makes More likely to stay i don't i don't think curb appeal directly contributes to your noi by bringing more money in. But it definitely contributes by, you know, making people a little more likely to stay there longer. So So we talked about the project, you know, how you closed on it, and what you've done since then. So the question I always like to ask everybody is what's next for you? Where are you going from here?


Heshel Mangel 25:21

Yes, and we're continuing to try to build both, obviously, on that deal. As well as other deals. As I mentioned, we are closing another deal here in about in about a week or two, hopefully, before the end of the month, you know, so we're continuing to look for these type of deals that, you know, meet that that criteria, if it's cash flowing, there's room for value to be added, and that we can be in for less than its value. So those those three are really important for the new deals that we're looking for. And really, as, as Joseph had told us, you know, a year ago, we're trying to think bigger. The last couple of deals we've been in, I've been about this size, you know, the 3035 units, we're trying to think bigger and be able to scale bigger and look for bigger properties. Yeah, that's, that's what we hope to be heading.


Brian Briscoe 25:59

Yeah. Love it. Love it. Yeah. And you got a really good base, you know, a couple of, you know, 2030 unit properties, I'm guessing your unit count right in right now is, you know, triple digit and your low triple digits. So being able to get go to that next step, you got a very solid base to be able to push the envelope a little more. Alright, so what advice would you give an aspiring investor who is you know, maybe six to 12 months out from getting their first deal,


Heshel Mangel 26:24

network, you know, build relationships with people, that's ultimately what drives the business is when you get out there, now you can get out there even more and meet people, show your face, build relationships, build real relationships, be consistent, I think is a huge thing. There's this business has ups and downs, and there's no guarantees from one day to the next every day is different. Just try to go out there be consistent, and and find common ground with service people around you with other people in the industry, where you can add value to people and ultimately, just build relationships with people.


Brian Briscoe 26:55

Yeah, yeah, that's solid. I mean, it's definitely a relationship business, you know, on on all aspects, you know, from, from you, to your investors, from you, to your lender, from you to the seller, the brokers from even the service providers, the property managers, and everybody else involved. It's a team sport, and you've got to keep that team together. So building the network, maintain those relationships is huge. Great, great tip. All right. And last question, how can listeners learn more about you?


Heshel Mangel 27:22

I'm available on LinkedIn, at cashflow man gal is my handle. That's probably the best way to go about finding me.


Brian Briscoe 27:29

Alright, sounds good. And we'll put a link to that in the show notes. So if anybody's interested in reaching out to him tap the link to his LinkedIn profile. And incidentally, that's where you know, when I first met was on LinkedIn. I think he responded to a post I put out a feeler I put out, you know, a year ago, you're looking for for people who wanted to come on podcasts. So that said, you know, Michelle, thank you so, so much for coming on the show. This was great. And it's been great catching up and seeing what you've done in the last year. So thank you very much. Yeah, I appreciate it.


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