Brokering Relationships with Tim Vest and Chad Fowers

Episode 186 of the Diary of an Apartment Investor Podcast with Tim Vest and Chad Fowers. Transcript by – please forgive any errors.

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Brian Briscoe 0:00

This is Brian Briscoe, hosts the Diary of an Apartment Investor, podcast and partner at four oaks capital. So we have something that we've been working on for a really long time we are building and we'll continue to build an educational community that we're calling the tribe of Titans. And it's going to be a community of multifamily investors based around education and his house on the mighty networks. What you're gonna find in there is a lot of events that are exclusive to the tribe of Titans members a tonne of educational content, and you're gonna find great people. So if you're listening to this podcast, because you're looking for community or you're looking for education, go no further the tribe of Titans is something you need to look into for the price of about $1 a day, you're going to be able to have access to everything that we have an elder content that we continue to produce for years to come. And just so there's no pressure and there's no obligation, the first month is free. So sign up first month free, and give it a test drive, if you'd like to keep hanging out and you'll continue to have access to Well, me and my partners are four oaks capital in a lot of other experience and aspiring investors. And where can you find it? The tribe of Titans dot info, there's a link to that at the bottom of the show notes of every single episode right now. So if you're interested, type in www dot the tribe of Titans dot info or go down to this bottom in the show notes and just tap the link a chat we got Tim on the line, what do you want to ask him?

Chad Fowers 1:22

What do you do when fields come to you that aren't deals and you have to reciprocate that that's not a deal to the broker,

Tim Vest 1:29

there's kind of a little bit of a fine line, right, you got to look out for your criteria, you got to look out for your investors criteria, I tend to tend to look at it two ways one, we kind of go at it with the approach of everybody gets into a lot. So we will submit what we feel is a good offer. And then we just offer our reasoning behind it. And you will give the broker the opportunity to say hey, you're the market specialist here. Please feel free to you know, challenge anything in here or tell us where we may be missing something. And then sometimes it just comes down to a you know, I appreciate that I just I'm just not seeing it. And so maybe this just isn't a deal for me and my investors.

Brian Briscoe 2:16

Welcome to the diary of an apartment investor podcast with your host Brian brisco. In this podcast, we bring some of the top professionals the apartment investment field to discuss various aspects of the apartment investing journey with the sole purpose of educating listeners to make wise investment decisions. The Diary of an apartment investor podcast is sponsored by four oaks capital bringing you high yield returns through apartment complex investing. Welcome to the diary of an apartment investor podcast. I'm your host, Brian brisco. With aurochs capital. Very excited for today's show. We got two amazing guys on the line with us today. We got Tim best. We got Chad Bowers. And that said, Tim, we'll start with you. Welcome to the show today.

Tim Vest 2:57

Hey, Brian, thanks. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Brian Briscoe 3:00

Yeah, thanks for coming on very much. Appreciate that, too. So start us off here and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Tim Vest 3:07

Yeah, so Tim vest, I'm out of Charlotte, North Carolina area. I've been doing real estate something for about 15 years now actually started at around 2006. Doing land development. Working with developers to put infrastructure in place before deals or before developments are brought to the general public, then moved into single family fix and flip single family rentals, that type of thing. Did that until about 2018 when I you know exited the single family space, moved in and started to look where I wanted to go next. And kind of the way I ended in multifamily seemed like a natural transition. And as I go around more and more to different groups, I'm starting to find that that's a very, very common transition. Fact just had a two day networking event in Raleigh, and man I must have met must have met 20 plus folks who were in single family looking to go into multifamily. So did that around 2019. And I've been done had been doing multifamily since.

Brian Briscoe 4:12

Yeah, a lot lot to unpack there. I mean, so you, you were in commercial real estate in 2006. Yeah. Right. Which is, you know, not quite the worst year to start commercial real estate 2007 would have been worse. But any any big lessons learned from, you know, being involved in real estate at that time?

Tim Vest 4:33

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So, so, a lot to unpack. And so let's unpack that one a little bit. Because one of the pieces I kind of skipped over there. And I've shared this before. So it was doing land development. Three, we were partner with three different developers. Two of them ended up going bankrupt. And one of them just shut his doors, couldn't keep couldn't keep going forward. And that was around 2008 2007 came 2008 was real bad 2009 not quite as bad kind of exiting out of it, but still not good. So yeah, one of the things I learned coming out of that was one, don't ever speculate with other people's money, which I didn't. So that's the good thing. It was all mine and my partner's money. So thank goodness for that. But then to the other piece I learned coming out of that was, look for real estate assets, look for real estate opportunities, where you have multiple exit strategies. And that was probably one of the biggest pieces I came out of that with in that particular scenario, the only exit strategy, the only way we would move forward with that is if the developer was in place, the market was still good, and we could go to market with it. That was the only way. And in that case, it goes really, really well. It's very, very lucrative until that, that, that road dries up, right, that stream dries up. So coming out of that did a lot of searching for other areas where, you know, things that cash flowed from day one, things that would build equity, but even if they didn't build equity, they cash flowed. And I could, I could at least carry them through rough times through the cat with the cash flow. things where, you know, worst case, I had to look at my investor and say, hey, look, we're not gonna be able to exit it in five years, like we thought about, but we're going to continue to cash flow and pay you on a regular basis. So while it's not, you know, we're not we're not getting to that five year exit, we are continuing to provide returns. And, you know, that was that was a big lesson coming out of that time.

Brian Briscoe 6:40

Yeah, yeah. I think that's it, that's a smart, good lesson learned there. I mean, multiple exit strategies, you know, and I think our people, you know, if you're not thinking about the exit, when you start, you can, you're prone to make some mistakes, you know, with the development, it's, it's a little higher risk for just that reason. You know, compare and compare and contrast, you know, development, multifamily syndication is in development, you put a lot of money up front, and you have to wait, you know, and there's no cash flow in between. and then yeah, you hopefully get that big pump at the end. Whereas multifamily, you know, it's a little more, you know, if you buy a cash flowing asset, getting that money, you're getting that money while you're operating, which is different strokes for different folks, I've invested in both directions, just slightly different risk profile. But so so from there to doing your single family, can you can you explain what got you into the single family and how that transition went?

Tim Vest 7:42

Just mostly just that, uh, you know, I had had a little bit of experience with it just from the standpoint of, before I moved into the house that my family lives in now. We had a house and, and we rented it, when we left, we said, well, we're not going to sell, we'll rent. And so I had some experience with that. And I knew I wanted to stay in real estate in some way, shape, or form, despite 2008 experience. And as we all know, single family homes at that time were a steal. You know, I hate to use that term, but they were going for really good prices, you can find things, you could find things in shorts, foreclosure, things like that. So there was a lot of opportunity there. If you had capital to go after. And, you know, lending was tough at the time. But, you know, we were able to go after we were able to go after some single family. So that's one of the reasons we pivoted into that space. Just that the opportunity was there. We were able to, you know, we had some I had some experience in that market with, you know, something I'd done in the past. And so we went that route.

Brian Briscoe 8:50

Nice. Nice. Yeah. And I mean, you're right, it was I refer to it as a great real estate sale. 2009 I mean, it was, yeah, we bought a place that was you know, short sale pre foreclosure. And, you know, looking back at, you know, we bought one, I wish we would have bought, you know, a dozen or turn a lot more at that time, just because prices were so low. That's, that's one thing. You're seeing the prices, you see the opportunity and you jumped on it. Oh,

Tim Vest 9:20

yeah. Yeah, the opportunities there but but kind of like you're alluding to, it's hard to time it right. You know, hindsight, hindsight, some you know, like, in my hindsight, right now, I wish I would have held on to my single families till this past year.

Brian Briscoe 9:36

It would have been who knows, I mean, two years from now, you may I mean, anything you sold last year, you may wish you would have held on to those even longer, but it's it's hard, you know, a lot of people would look at today's market in some people are saying, you know, it's gonna crash, it's gonna crash. It's gonna crash, you know, but 2007 I don't there was like one one person who was saying it's going to crash it's going to crash and But I don't know it's hard to time. It's hard to time the top, it's hard to time the bottom.

Tim Vest 10:06

Yeah, and, and, you know, folks comparing today to 2007. I won't say that it's not gonna crash, I don't have a crystal ball. But what I do know, as I was, I was part of 2006 2007, I saw the lending that was going on in 2007, I can look back and remember conversations I had with, with banks and brokers and the types of things they were telling me, the no doc loans, the Just tell me what your income is, you know, submit five applications, and the system can't tell that use your one person submitting for five different properties, things like that. That's not happening today, the banks have really, really tightened up their lending standards. You know, the amount of documentation I'm having to provide now for these deals and doing is, is, in my opinion, is almost over the top. But it is, you know, their due diligence, the bank's due diligence, is lightyears better than it was, you know, 13 years ago. So if it's going to happen, it's not going to be because of lending standards, not

Brian Briscoe 11:11

lending. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. We, I think we're reactionary by nature, you know, as a country, you know, politically bank, we're always trying to prevent the last crash, you know, and, you know, I spent 20 years in the military, and it's the same thing, they're, you know, we're trying to prevent the last war, and a lot of times when we retreat, we're still trying to fight the last war, you know, it's one of those things where, yeah, I wish I had a much better crystal ball. So in lieu of, I think, I think what you said was smart, you know, you buy something that cash flows upfront, and you have multiple exit plans, you know, so you can exit at 358 or 12, depending on how the market is, and, you know, you're not stuck in into one exit, potentially exiting when things are not good. So

Tim Vest 12:05

yeah, and then as well, but in the Sorry, just add that 111 of the other big pieces is just your business plan, you know, you know, we we go into things now, where the three to four, or three or four key pieces in the business plan for any asset are things that we have a significant amount of control over things that, you know, as long as we focus on it, as long as we work towards those, we control those outcomes. So, you know, we go after things like that, where we're not as dependent on somebody else performing somebody else delivering

Brian Briscoe 12:41

or the economy doing better, you know, right, right. Yeah. You know, and that's, that's, that's one one reason I like the value add space is because a lot of the appreciation a lot of the value created depends on how well you execute your business plan, you know, so, you know, in place market rents are a couple $100 for if market rents are a couple $100 more than the in place rents, you know, you know, there's room there, you know, you're going to be able to, you know, execute your business plan and move rents up. And it's not dependent on the market getting better, it's dependent on, you know, usually bringing the property up to market level, which a lot of operators can do, and that's, in my mind, a much less risky venture or investment for people, then, you know, buying a property and hoping you know, the value doubles in five or 10. years. Yeah, 100%. Completely agree. So, one question for you. And I love asking everybody the question, what is your big burning? Why?

Tim Vest 13:47

My big burning lie, and I feel like maybe people say this one quite a bit, too. But my big burning wire right now is a 13 year old girl who's off at school right now. So, you know, I have one daughter, and I've, I've always kind of looked at things like my parents were set up a little bit better than their parents were by their parents, my parents set me up a little bit better than they were. So my big burning why's to kind of continue that for my family. I want to set my daughter up in a little bit better position than my parents gave me. And I want to provide I want to build something even provides a legacy for her. And then, you know, I don't want her to feel like she has to graduate college and go chase that dollar. I don't want her to feel like she has to go chase that that salary. I want her to be able to follow kind of her passion, her dreams. If she wants to go be an artist, she wants to write books, she wants to do whatever. As long as she's doing something constructive and just passionate about I wouldn't be able to give her that opportunity. So that's that's my why.

Brian Briscoe 14:52

Yeah, I love it. I love it. And, you know, same same thing happened in generations back. You know, my grandpa had it better than his parents. My parents had it better than my grandma. have parents, you know, and you try to keep on building on the foundation you were given and do a little bit better for your kids appreciate that a lot. And something else I'll add is, you know, having having the money part figured out, buys options, you know, and that's, that's, I think you said something that's absolutely key is, you know, a lot of people want to do something that fulfils them. But you know, if you're scraping to, you know, make your pay your rent or your mortgage, or, you know, borrowing money to buy food, you know, you're not going to be able to do something that fulfils you. So I still love the Forrest Gump, quote, you know, money, it's just one less thing, you know. But anyway, that said, let's shift gears slightly here and talk about some of the projects you've done. So if you wouldn't mind, you know, sharing some information on maybe pick pick your first pick your most recent or are talking about, you know, some of the projects you've done.

Tim Vest 16:03

Yeah, to talk about one of my recent ones that we took down in Richmond, Virginia, and I'll bring this one up, because I mean, I, one of the things I've always gotten into with real estate, is it what's the old adage? location, location, location? Yeah, this thing is location. You know, I know, I know, there's some folks out there that aren't as familiar with Richmond, Virginia. It's a really strong market. And it's a it's a very, it's got a lot of strong performance indicators in the market, you know, healthcare, medical, education, government, all there in one little downtown area. And then at the same time, the town just the city just has some great bones. And we found a, we found a 27 unit building one of the last low income 27 unit buildings in an area called shakos. Slip. And in Richmond, Virginia, there's two really, really strong areas and downtown kotoko slipping chakra bottom, this sits smack dab in the middle of Chaco slip. And man, we're really excited about that one. It needs a little TLC needs a good scrubbing on the face. And in some, you know, a little bit of work on the inside, but it has a tonne of potential. And this one's This one looks really promising. We're, we're extremely excited about it. It's it's just one of those that you feel like you can go in and it's got some great bones, you know, exposed brick wood beams, wood floors, you know, it's just got a lot of personality. in it. It's one of those you get excited about. It's one of those I get excited about.

Brian Briscoe 17:43

We bought I don't know how old yours was. We bought one that was like a 30 build. And another one was a 40. Bill. And I don't know, I don't know what

Tim Vest 17:54

this was right after the Civil War. So like 1870 something build. Yeah, but

Brian Briscoe 17:59

I mean, good bones. I mean, those that they say it a lot. They don't make buildings like they used to. And it's true, but you know, beautiful brick exteriors that you just want, you don't want to touch you know, the wood floors. I'm sure we don't have original wood floors in there. But man, I mean, they've been there for decades. Now. It just looks nice. But that's what I'm imagining in my mind when you're when you're talking about that. So

Tim Vest 18:24

and that's, that's what it is. There's even a couple of spots where you can tell they came in and put, like some sort of flooring down and you're like, I bet you there's wood under that. And like I want to peek I want to I want to pull it up and be like, yeah, there it is. Yeah, there. Yeah.

Brian Briscoe 18:39

Yeah, another opportunity right there. Yeah. I mean, I think it's funny how there there was, like, I guess the carpet revolution where all sudden carpet was, you know, much cooler than wood floors. And everybody wanted to cover those things up. But man sure is a nice surprise, surprise when you peek underneath the carpet. And you're like, yep, there's wood there.

Tim Vest 18:59

Yeah, so we get that. That's the that's one we did recently. And then one that we're really excited about that we're doing right now is actually just outside Charleston, North Carolina, sorry, Charleston, South Carolina. in Somerville, when for folks who aren't familiar with Charleston kind of starts with the ocean, where the like three rivers flow in and you go north and you run into North Charleston in Somerville. It's right past that area. And strong, strong area, lots of jobs going in their modes of distribution, much of medical going in down there. And then this, this is a 32 unit property that we've we've got under contract that will be closing on here. Just towards the end of September, actually. I don't know exactly what I would do

Brian Briscoe 19:48

is at the product to Charleston where the port is as well.

Tim Vest 19:52

So Somerville is not Somerville is more you think if you think of you think about that industry, like you pull things in from the ocean. You Put them in the port, then they go out to distribution centres that are pretty close by Summerville is that area where all the big warehouses and distribution centres are that you pull them in, and then they hit the Interstate and they get deployed through the country. Alright, so

Brian Briscoe 20:13

that's Yeah, I mean, we were operating. We're definitely in the South Carolina market. One thing I really liked about Charleston is is that port facility, it's one of the largest ports on the east coast. And it does drive a lot of business there. So, you know, Port expansion, everything that side, it's, I think I'm very bullish on Charleston in general. And, you know, I've heard you in North Charleston in that area up north is where a lot of protests, so assuming that's going to be, you know, a really, really solid deal for you.

Tim Vest 20:47

Yeah, yeah, we're, we're really excited lately. Like I said, you know, you can only go right now, you can only go a couple of ways in Charleston for growth, because, you know, it is on the water there. So, North is one of those directions where it seems to be headed.

Brian Briscoe 21:02

Yep. Yep. That's right on a major freeway, major artery too. So I mean, you get that freeway, that's, that's, that's where the growth is going to happen. Yeah. So I mean, unless they start reclaiming, then, which they're probably not going to be doing in Charleston, you know, your, your expenses is going to go along one of the major freeways, so 100%, good play there. Alright, so what's next for you?

Tim Vest 21:26

What's next? Well, we're constantly looking for more things. We're, we're looking hard in that Charleston market, we're continuing to look hard in the Richmond market. We're expanding very, very aggressively into the Columbia, South Carolina market. We've identified three zip codes inside that market where we want to focus we're will be closing on a property in was in one of those zip codes a 24 unit here in the next two weeks. Yeah. And we are, we will be going down to Colombia to kind of boots on the ground canvass the area where we have where we have for under contract right now that we're going to make sure that we want to continue to move forward with price. So we'd like that market to and that's that seems to be next.

Brian Briscoe 22:12

Yeah. And that's 24 unit. And we talked about this a couple weeks ago, but that's one that I looked at a couple years ago. Yeah. When was marked with and it's a beautiful property. And we're we like Colombia, my wife was actually born in West Columbia, and raised in Lexington. So that's, that's part of the reason that we focus in the Carolinas, and, you know, we've got a property or two in that area as well. So I'm very, very bullish on that state and in that city as well. That said, we're gonna shift gears slightly and bring Chad on. So Chad, welcome.

Chad Fowers 22:49

Thank you. Appreciate it. Happy to be here.

Brian Briscoe 22:52

Yeah. So do us a favour and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Chad Fowers 22:58

I really appreciate you taking the time to have me on. I'm originally from Salt Lake City, Utah. That's my primary market. Over the last four years, I've been flipping single family homes. I started out as a real estate agent representing buyers and sellers. And I did that for about six months, just long enough to realise that there was more to being in real estate than just being a real estate agent. So I decided the only other thing was to jump into the fix and flip on but unbeknownst to me that there's a lot more in real estate. And that's what I'm finding out right now. So, like I said, over the last four years been doing fix and flip and have been pretty successful at it. and been able to build a team doing doing a good amount of volume here in our local market. About six months ago, I discovered apartments indications through different podcasts, Grant Cardone different online platforms, and realise that the thing that I was really trying to get into was apartment investing instead of single family fix and flip, kind of like Tim was saying, we all start somewhere and that's kind of the transition that I'm looking to make now from that single family fix and flip to the apartment investing so that's what I've been doing and just spend diving, headfirst figuring out as much information as I can to be able to get started and and get into this world as well. So

Brian Briscoe 24:23

yeah, absolutely. I don't know how I missed this before you know, I just pulled up the the original new email chain 801 area code I should have realised that I grew up in just north of Salt Lake City, so so let's go deeper. We're in Salt Lake, where are Utah

Chad Fowers 24:43

so I recently actually moved to Ogden, Utah. So that's about 45 minutes north of Salt Lake City, approximately there I actually have my broker who I hold my licence with has an office here in downtown Salt Lake Have a main street. So I commute back and forth. I kind of am over, but primarily so long in there.

Brian Briscoe 25:08

But yeah, I grew up in Layton went, you know, late in high school. My mom graduated Bonneville High School and obviously my dad graduated Bentonville, you know, so yeah, my daughter, I buy those all the time. Yeah. So those are my stomping grounds. My mole strong stomping grounds right now. But my folks still live in Layton. I'm down that area a lot. So Wow, small world, small world. But so same question for you that that I asked everybody on the show, what's your big burning? Why?

Chad Fowers 25:42

Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's, it's hard for me, I feel like I'm still young enough that I'm still trying to figure it out about why I guess my real why in the real estate world is that I want to be able to prove that if I can do it, then anyone can do it. Coming from my background, I don't, I don't have any real estate experience. I don't have any financial freedom, success stories that are kind of my stepping stone to success. And I really just love the fact that if, if I can do it, then anyone else can do it. And that's really my why, obviously, I have three girls, and a wife who I love a lot. And they're super supportive, and I want to make them happy and successful. But on top of that, I want to be able to be that catalyst for anyone that's looking to do something hard, and and aspire to be successful that, that if I can do it, they can do it.

Brian Briscoe 26:39

Awesome. I love it, too. Yeah. And that's, that's something that I think really helps, you know, just just the, if I can do it, you can do it. You know, and that's something that, you know, several years ago, a guy who's actually invested heavily in Richmond, you know, pointed out to me, hey, there's a lot of people who are doing it, you know, they can do it, you can do it. And I think that, that helps out a lot. But here we go with my favourite part of the show. I'm going to say something like a chat. We got Tim on the line, what do you want to ask him?

Chad Fowers 27:11

Yeah, good. Good question, Tim. Super, super happy to be able to talk to you a little bit. The biggest thing that I want to talk about is, how do you preserve broker relationships, when they send you send you properties that aren't deals. So I've this comes from just to give you a little backstory, this comes from a little bit of experience with a broker bringing me a deal off market that they they had, I ran the numbers, I'm actually in microbox, real estate investment course. So I have the syndication deal analyzer and I ran all the numbers, look at the cash on cash, look at the IRR and the excess cash flow after, after everything, and there just wasn't the numbers there. The broker was pitching it as potentially an IRR of 10 to 15%, after your five or something like that, and the numbers just weren't making sense to me from what I was getting. And so when I told him that it wasn't a deal for me, he kind of got a little bit upset, because I didn't trust the numbers that he was telling me. And, you know, you want to preserve those relationships, because in this in this world, you don't want to burn those bridges, because that's how deals come. So I just am curious, what do you do when when deals come to you that aren't deals? And you have to reciprocate? That that's not a deal to, to the broker?

Tim Vest 28:33

Very good question. And there's kind of a little bit of a fine line, right? You know, because you gotta you got to look out for your criteria, you got to look out for your investors criteria, you know, for me, I tend to get, I tend to look at it two ways. One, we kind of go at it with the approach of everybody gets into a lie. So we will submit what we feel is a good offer, you know, or a fair offer. And then we just offer our reasoning behind. You know, here's the things we're seeing, here's our understanding of the market, here's how we underwrote it, and a will give the broker the opportunity to say, hey, you're the, you're the market specialist here. Please, please feel free to you know, challenge anything in here or tell us where we may be missing something. And just kind of create that conversation. And then sometimes it just comes down to a you know, I appreciate that I just, I'm just not seeing it. You know, and so maybe this just isn't a deal for me and my investors. But you know, just try we just try to keep it cordial and keep the conversation going and tell him, Hey, we're really interested in anything you got coming up. So please keep this in mind. But so far, for the most part. We've I've found and you know, my mind writers found that, you know, as long as we kind of can explain where we're coming at it from and what we're seeing that They, they tend to be okay. It seems like maybe you try to do that, but the broker still wasn't quite CNI with you? And you know, yeah. Honestly, I mean, that just happens sometimes in need just kind of got to say, Hey, I, you know, I just I can't see it. And if I don't think I can act on it, I can't take this to my investors. Yeah.

Brian Briscoe 30:19

Yeah, yeah, to do, there are lots of ways to cordially slip out of it. I mean, and I think, you know, what Tim is saying is, is just right on is, you know, agree with their numbers, I mean, hey, I understand your numbers, you know, just doesn't quite meet the returns that I can get, or, you know, lending or, you know, this is this doesn't quite fit the profile, and what I'm looking for, and then reiterate, this is what I'm looking for type stuff that that will go a long way to helping the relationship.

Chad Fowers 30:50

Any tips on how to build credibility on the numbers that you've run, and your projections, being a new investor to the space,

Tim Vest 30:59

the biggest thing is just being up for me is just being able to speak to them with with facts and data, you know, you're I'm seeing this in the market, this is what I'm seeing for rents, this is what I'm seeing for, you know, a reasonable cap x for the type of lift that you're, you're, you're pitching me here, or you're you're communicating, and just being able to talk to it that way. And know the angels been just know that your numbers are, are fairly accurate. As long as you kind of stick to those facts, you know, I always find that the credibility is there. And then, you know, and then this is easier said than done. Right. But then the next piece, the next level above that is, once you get that first one under your belt, then you're able to point to you know, we are closing on things that that, you know, that we find it makes sense. And we can take our investors, we have the ability to close. And that because I mean, you said your broker as well, right? You know, because, yeah, one of the things you hate in one of the things all brokers hate is right, the tire kickers right? Yep. Yeah. And, and I get asked, I use that term, because I get asked that term all the time. He's like, are you a tire kicker. And that's where, hey, here's our credibility package, your stuff we've done, right. And I can completely appreciate that, you know, I mean, you guys got to Business Brokers have, you know, they've got to make money too. So they need to make sure that people that they're dealing with are making the best use of their time, and I can appreciate that, and I just try to help workers understand that I'm friends, like, I don't want to waste your time. So you know, I'm here to I'm here to do a deal. And, and just try to level set that way.

Brian Briscoe 32:41

One thing I'll add is lean on other people, you know, your question was about credibility for numbers, Leon, other people who are credible, you know, so if, when I'm a brand, if I were brand new, and actually, I still do this, I'm underwriting a property down the street for me here in Idaho Falls, and I'm new to the Idaho Falls market. I called a property manager and, you know, talk with the property manager and said, Hey, you know, I'm only seeing a handful of properties on apartments, calm on Zillow on everything else, can you help me figure out where rents are on two ones and two twos, and, you know, this type of property, and, you know, the property manager comes back with numbers, and now you have a lot more credibility with the brokers because you're like, Hey, I'm working with, you know, XYZ property manager. And, you know, they're telling me that we can probably get rents up to, you know, X amount, you know, and therefore, you know, my numbers are based on what this property manager is telling me we can get in that neighbourhood, you know, and then if it, if it comes, it comes down between our numbers versus their numbers, you've got something behind you, that carries a little more weight, then you who they're going to potentially view as a, you know, brand new guy that may not know the market well, but rather lean on other professionals. And the other thing I'll say is, don't be afraid to, you know, hey, these other professionals to do these, to do this for you.

Tim Vest 34:13

Yeah, that's Brian. that's a that's a really good point. I completely overlooked that. And we do it all the time. I have a really, really good underwriter I partner with, but almost everything that we underwrite. We'll pass it through a couple of other guys we know in our network and worked for other who worked for other companies or syndicators, and like a, you know, sanity check us here, you know, what do you think of this and, you know, if they come back and they're close, or whatever, then we feel pretty good about and when we're willing to, you know, kind of argue, politely debate, you know, our numbers at that point, but yeah, that's a good point.

Chad Fowers 34:47

Yeah, I think going into it, I've always thought it's me against the broker. Just because so many things you hear from training and different things like that, is that the brokers are going to give you their pro forma, and it's going to be inflated number and everything like that. So is it our job to to just take the brokers word for it? Obviously that's that's not what I think is the the outcome that you want just because a lot of times you're going to be underwater or you're going to select a bad investment. But at the same time, I guess you want to build that, that relationship of helping them feel like they're, they're credible as well.

Tim Vest 35:24

Yeah. And in like I've, I don't think I've ever told a broker, his numbers were wrong, right? I've never said, Man, your numbers are just wrong. I think the phrase I tend to use a lot is I'm just not seeing it. I'm just not, I can't I can't get there, I'm not able to get there. And maybe I'm missing something. But you know, at the end of the day, I kind of always look at it as you can't blame me for erring on the side of I can't blame a broker for going after top dollar for his client. And I can't blame me for erring on the side of caution when it comes to my investors. You know,

Brian Briscoe 35:59

I think it always helps to take a broker's point of view, you know, what's the brokers job? You know, they're taking a property to market, they're trying to maximise its value. Okay, so, brokers are going to have a very rosy picture of what the property is worth, you know, and they're, they're promoting it, they're trying to, you know, make it look as good as possible to try to get the highest possible price. That's what they're trying to do. So do they stretch numbers a little bit? They probably do. You know, do they make the, you know, the income look a little rosy and the the expenses look, you know, very streamlined. Yeah, they do. But, you know, just realise that, you know, and the other thing that they're looking for is they're looking for quick sale, I mean, sure, sure bet sale, you know, as quickly as possible for the best possible price. So I'd say don't look at it as you versus the broker. Because the broker doesn't win. Unless he puts a deal together. So look at it more, as you know, you are helping the broker, get what he wants, okay, you need to be you need to go in that that philosophy, hey, I'm going to help you get what you want. I don't want to waste your time. All right, if we can hit your number, we are going to hit your number. And if we can't, then, you know, we'll wait for the next deal.

Tim Vest 37:17

Yeah, and Brian did some really key thing there instead of a win win, right? Like, you know, a I, I want to come with the strongest offer because I want to be competitive. But I also don't want to come with an offer. That's so ridiculous that we're going to end up renegotiating and maybe the deal falls out 3045 days from now, which is I mean that no burger wants that. Right. So right, you know, like, how can I get the most competitive deal with the most with the highest probability of closing in the shortest amount of time for you? Right? So help me get there? You know, it's it's not you against the broker, it really is kind of a partnership in a way. Yeah. You know, that's, that's that tends to be how we approach them.

Chad Fowers 37:59

Yeah, I think that that's the key that I'm looking for is just because there's a limited amount of brokers that do a good amount of volume in the multifamily space in a specific market. And so if you get someone on the line that brings you a deal, and then you're not able to fulfil on that deal, or it's not a deal for you. Just make sure that you maintain that so that deal flow can be continuous over time. But I think that you guys did an awesome job of answering that. That's super helpful. I guess one of the questions that I do have is just what the reasonable expectation as a new investor for the amount of capital, that I should be looking to raise just the district a reality check. And just because, again, going after larger properties, is it? Is it reasonable to say, Hey, I am going to go out and raise a million dollars? Or is it Hey, I am going to try to raise $100,000 and partner with the rest of the money or what what would you say is starting out what's the good expectation

Tim Vest 38:55

there? I hate to say this, but I think it kind of depends. And I'll give you I'll give you a reason why. It depends on your network, right? Depends on what you're what you're starting with. Me, I started a year ago, a year and a half ago raising I've been doing multifamily longer than that. But I wasn't raising I I'd always been resistant to raising capital myself. But I started a year and a half ago raising capital and so it took me a little while to get to the point where I felt like I could confidently go in and say I can bring 500,000 a year deal. That'd be that's me. We have a guy that works with us who has been doing some sort of financial and connecting with with high net worth individuals for 15 years now. He showed up having never raised a dime for multifamily deal, and literally enough in the span of three days completely funded 300,000 for this deal and 800,000 for another deal. We're doing Got a really a really kinda, really guns a kind of deal depends on that net network that you had that you're starting with, um, if you're starting from scratch, it's good, you know, I would say, you know, start with 100 200,000 shoot for the moon at some point. But you know, if you got a bigger network or a bigger base, and you know, you could be doing 1,000,002 million easily.

Brian Briscoe 40:23

Yeah, I met a guy. He's actually been on the podcast as an aspiring investor. But my first phone call with him was about a year ago, and he's like, I think I'd be really good at raising capital. You know, my job right now, his ex, and I deal with a lot of high net worth people. Yep. And he's raised for two deals, and he brought four and a half million. All right, when he was because his network, he already had a bunch of high net worth people in his network that had no problem writing a $50,000 check. You know, my network? You know, I didn't have very many people in my network that, you know, were high net worth. And, you know, for me, the first deal was a struggle, you know, I was going out to meetups all over the place trying to find people who could, you know, who could invest? Because my network? I didn't have a, you know, I don't have a rich uncle. You know, I don't have all right, you know, people who can invest. So, I think, you know, Tim hit the nail on the head, it depends on what your network looks like already. I would say as a new investor, you know, and I've talked to dozens and dozens of people on their first race. You know, if you really want $1 amount, I would say somewhere around 500,000, you know, is what a lot of brand new investors are, are bringing in, you know, successfully. There are a couple there are people who bring less than people who bring more, but I think that's probably a good place to a good goal to set somebody who's a good, attainable goal to set for someone in your shoes. Yeah.

Tim Vest 42:01

And just the follow up that number, the first the first syndication I did where I raised for another syndicator, who was 500,000. Okay, and I hit that mark, but, uh, it took my entire network that that mark?

Brian Briscoe 42:18

Yeah, when one of my one of my partners on our first deal made two phone calls got 500,000 Yeah, so it's exactly yeah, it really it really depends, you know, but, you know, from from where you're at, I think, you know, stick with a number like 500,000. And, you know, push, push and push and push till you get there. So, yeah,

Chad Fowers 42:39

thank you.

Brian Briscoe 42:41

All right. We've got time for one more question if you got another one.

Chad Fowers 42:45

Yeah, I guess my last question, centres around partnerships. I'm up to this point. Over the last six months, I've been going at this as a single member of a business and I hear a lot of different opinions as far as forming partnerships, and maybe doing deals as partnerships. In this business, I know that there's, there's a lot of aspects that we have to cover, as far as asset management, property management, obviously raising and acquisitions and everything that gets involved with that. Have you have you seen any? what's what's the pros and cons of not having a partner?

Tim Vest 43:29

Um, pros and cons. So pros are, you know, you got people to lean on, you got people to back yard, you got people to question you on what you think is the right way. You know, you, you, you automatically expand your network for one, you know, going back to the network piece, you know, you got people that bring different skill sets to the table, you know, for instance, my primary partner, great guy, Robert museo. He's got a huge background in sales and marketing. He's got a huge alumni network. And he's, he's done a tonne of, he's done a tonne of smaller properties where he's been hands on with you know, renovations down to paint selection and you know, what colour should the door look like? That level of experience is invaluable and then you know, I come at it more from I have an IT background, I have a skill, I can scale businesses and I'm, I'm good boots on the ground and getting into property and seeing, you know, shortcomings in asset management. So you put us together and not so we make a pretty good team. So that's the pros, I guess the cons are is, you know, you own a little bit less of a deal. You're not always going to agree on everything. conversations can be difficult. And then you know, you got a you know, something I've been dealing with recently not with Robert, let me just call that out. But uh In, you know, just make sure you really really know your partner well. Because this is not a short term relationship. Most of these aren't. So make sure you know who you're partnering with.

Brian Briscoe 45:14

Yet, I'll add one of the biggest pros, and this is kind of where I started getting traction is when I partnered up with somebody. I think most brokers realise that, you know, one person doesn't go far in this business, right? So you when you look at credibility with brokers, if you're calling up with the Ay, ay, ay, you know, they're going to, you know, their, their spidey senses are going to be tingling. And they're going to be, you know, hey, this one guy working on its own trying to tackle a $5 million building. But one thing the partnership brings to you is just a little bit more credibility. And if you can line yourself up with somebody who has a little more experience, then that's I think that counters all the potential negatives that come with it, you know, the, the lack of flexibility, maybe or whatnot. But I honestly don't think there's a really good way to get to where you want to go without, you know, partnering with somebody in one way, shape or form.

Chad Fowers 46:20

But that's super helpful.

Brian Briscoe 46:23

Yeah. That said, we're about out of time. So one question for each of you to finish up. How can investors learn more about you? Can you go first,

Tim Vest 46:32

right, sure. So on my website, harvest property, sorry, harvest PG calm that's harvest P is in Paul G is in George calm, or reach out to me directly to vest at harvest PG calm. Those are probably the two best ways. always up for a chat.

Brian Briscoe 46:51

We'll put that information in the show notes. So if anybody's interested, tap the show notes. And this magical internet thing or whiskey away. Chat, same question for you. How can investors learn more investors? how can listeners and investors learn more about you?

Chad Fowers 47:07

Yeah, if you want to follow me on Instagram, Instagram, comm forward slash maybe in Capital Group. That's probably the best way I have a link there that you can access a free training that will link to my calendly link, and be happy to jump on a call at any time with anyone to discuss further opportunities as well. My email is Chad at Mavin Capital Group Co. That's moving capital

Brian Briscoe 47:30

So Alright, and we'll have links to those in the show notes as well. So if you're interested in linking up with Chad, definitely reach out. So that's it. Thank you to both of you for a great episode today. I had a good time. Well, you guys do too.

Tim Vest 47:44

Yeah. Thanks, Brian. Nice to meet you.

Brian Briscoe 47:52

Thank you for listening to the apartment investor podcast today brought to you by four oaks capital. If you'd like to know more about how to invest in apartment buildings or want to be a guest on our show, visit our website at four oaks capital comm slash podcast or email us directly. If you're still listening, you obviously like the show. So pull out your phone app, subscribe, and leave us a five star rating on your favourite podcast app. And we'll see you again next week.

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